A Lesson Learned - page 3

Again, there is another thread started- which could be interpreted by some as passive-aggressive remarks about advanced degree nurses, and it could not. I read it and felt slightly insulted, and I... Read More

  1. by   mario_ragucci
    RN Country - you have dropped SERIOUS knowledge on me with your outstanding post. I am thinking of one day teaching, and you have directed my thoughts and searchs for knowledge to the very beginning of nursing, and I thank you. Your post is very informative, showing an evolution of nursing which I was not awar of. Now I am, and am in your debt
  2. by   mattsmom81
    I feel badly when I read of the hurt feelings from our posts---hurt feelings on the part of BSN's, non BSN's and LPN's alike.

    I guess it comes down to our own personal decision to 'build people up" or 'tear people down'. Our titles do very little to influence our ability to do this, we have to search our hearts...as Mario has alluded to..

    As a human being, mother, wife and nurse I strive to build people up as much as possible--to love/care for another is to validate worth and encourage growth. Sometimes our human frailties cause us to lash out or be impatient and I am guilty of this.

    If I have offended anyone on this BB I heartily apologise...we should indeed all be proud of our accomplishments. I am very proud of my CCRN, Susy is proud of her BSN, and Mario is proud of his CNA, Greytnurse is proud of her LPN. We're in this crazy healthcare world together, so let's remember to save a little of our caring for each other, and even ourselves.

    Luv ya'll!
  3. by   Agnus
    As long as I do not take personal responsibility for my situation and continue pointing fingers and say YOU should fix this or do this then there will always remain 3 more fingers pointing back at me.

    I'm sorry to come across *****y but it is not up to "nurses like yourself" It is not even up to nurses like myself. It is up to me. Not everyone chooses, came into nursing for, or wants to lobby, or can become politically active at a high level. But many are active in small or apparently hidden ways.

    Nursing teachers (hid in acedemia) are often the greatest political advocates for us. They taught me before even leaving school how to be politically active, and the unfortunate need for it. They also taught me what areas needed attention before I found out for myself.

    It is a waste of my time to say YOU must fix something for me. I don't see us gaining leadership by continuing to waite for someone to follow. It's been said "managers do things right. Leaders do the right thing"

    The only question I can rightfully ask is, "what have I done lately?"
    Last edit by Agnus on Mar 31, '02
  4. by   OC_An Khe
    This is an interesting and informative thread and I do hope it will not be closed anytime soon.
    Where to start, divide and conquor, that what has been encouraged by those who do not want to let Nursing acheive the level of input that the profession deserves. We do need to look at history and learn from it.
    Yes LPN's were essentially driven out of hospital nursing. It was done for sensible business reasons but these reasons were poorly communicated and easily misinterperted. The scope of practise of the LPN is considerably less than that of an RN (in most states). The RN gives the hospital(employer) more flexibility and thus LPN has became a less desirous employee because of their limited scope of practise. This is fact and needs to be recognized by all. Will this change as the shortage grows? Look to the history of the development of the LPN and previoius RN shortages.
    It has been advocated for many decades if not for over a century that the entry level for RN should be the BSN degree. ANd going forward if this is not adopted Nursing will never grow or receive the recognition and rewards it deserves. This too is fact and will not change until the American culture does. Again divide and conquor. Look to Nursing history and place it it the culture of the the 19th and 20th century. Particularly how society looked at the status and role of women.
    As for retreating into academia, the best professors I had were those that continued to work in direct patient care. Some schools require their professors to keep a clinical practise going and wish more would do so.
  5. by   zumalong
    Being a nursing educator and per diem bedside nurse, I can't see how in the near future the majority of new grads will have their BSN. The cost, the time, the cost are major reasons. We are entering another nursing shortage. I say another--because I remember the mid 80's when, as an LPN, the hosp. were begging for nurses of any level.

    Since that huge recruitment, many of the LPN's I work with have been in acute care for 15+ years. I don't see any difference on the unit whether it is an ADN or BSN. We all work together to deliver the best care we can. (I must work in a very unusual unit after reading some of the postings on this board).

    I agree with ocankhe that we will not progress much further until the entry level is a BSN, but it is not going to happen in the near future. So what we all need to realize is that school only gives you building blocks, it is how you use those blocks that shapes you into a great nurse at any level. (which I have seen many new grads get eaten alive because they are not "experts" in their field).

    Happy Easter to everyone.
  6. by   Mary Dover
    OK, I tend to avoid these threads like the plague (at least replying to them). But the theme has touched home enough, that I am at last compelled to respond.
    Certainly, in the nursing profession (and with that I include ALL - CNAs, LPNs, RNs - no matter the degree) we are a collective group. But within that group, we are all individuals - with uniqie ideas, goals, lifestyles - you name it.
    To me it's not the degree, but the person with it. I respect all - because I am certain that I can learn from something from each.
    Personally, I am an ADN for 12 years. I have known for a few years now, that in order to practice the kind of nursing care I want to provide, I must pursue advanced education. But life circumstances - up to now, had not been conducive to pursuing that goal. But guess what - that time is finally here. I am about to begin at last.
    And yes I will be proud when that day finally arrives, but pride, in my opinion, should remain subjective. The letters at the end of my name, doesn't change who I am. The further education and life experiences along the way, will undoubtedly foster my personal growth. But I am still just me. A little ole country girl, from the south, that if you heard me speak with my drawl, you may just assume that I'm 30 IQ points dumber than I really am - LOL. Which actually summarizes my point. That it's unfair to judge based on perceptions. Any perceptions. The actual human being inside is what counts.
    Mary
  7. by   Q.
    Moe-
    Again, you seem to be acting as "peacemaker" and while that is noble and I admire that, this thread was started as a way to vent in regards to Gretynurse's thread that was closed AGAIN. All I asked for on that thread was to not knock BSNs either out in the open or between the lines, and, I was seen as elitist for that. I was even told that the way I connected with my patient wasn't even that special, that ANY nurse at that moment would have been a "God-send." I don't believe that. I connected with her in a way that no one else did. Several other caregivers had been taking care of her that day as well, but she connected with ME. It seems now that I can't even revel in my accomplishments that have NOTHING to do with my BSN.

    This thread is meant to speak out for all the RNs and BSNs here who often feel scared to post; it is not about LPNs and who is worth more. It is about RNs and BSNs right now and being proud of their accomplishments, and rising above the blanket statements of RNs and BSNs being unskilled at the bedside! That is what this about.

    And that is what I meant by my other post above. Derogatory comments about an RN or BSN should NOT be tolerated, just as comments about LPNs (even when they are not derogatory - but simply fact, such as that LPNs don't work in critical care areas in MY state) are not tolerated. And if derogatory comments are made about me, I reserve the right to defend myself without being seen as elitist, or "very young" or immature. That is all.
  8. by   RNPD
    quotes by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

    "Yes, a lot of people have said, in so many words, that LPNs aren't as good as RNs...there are plenty of threads here & on the LPN Corner which will verify that. "


    I would like to see specific posts where RNs who post here specifically bash LPNs.

    "A lot of LPNs whom have worked faithfully in hospitals for many years, were laid-off & weaned out because hospital administrators, in their infinite wisdom, told them that their education was either worthless, useless, not enough or simply, not wanted. I think the root to a lot of hurt feelings & ego's is in this fact...feeling like you've been toss-out...like old - broken things. "


    That is certainly not the fault of the RNs who post here. That was a corporate decision that LPNs can not be utilized as efficiently in hospitals as RNs-even if LPNs cost less. What does that have to do with me or anyone else who posts here? The day they decide to get rid of RNs in certain facilities and replace them with MAs-will I turn around and bash NPs?

    "Once out of the hospital system, LPNs are told that they're only useful in nursing homes, home heatlh, & in doctors' offices & were discriminated against by hospitals for years."


    Again not the fault of RNs here.

    "...it's how the whole medical community perceive & utilizes them...one minute they're needed & valued...the next...they're not. It like being a ping-pong ball...back & forward. "

    Ditto


    "You only further add the fuel to the fire when you spoke about "them" meaning the LPNs posting here on the General Discussion Boards...which is supposed to be opened to EVERYBODY...from CNAs, Nursing Students, LPNs, RNS, to MDs. The comment of "them" (LPNs) posting here on the general boards suggests that they aren't welcome or don't have the right to post here & that they should remain in the "special" LPN Corner made for them. "


    No, that may be what you inferred but not what I meant. GreytNurse posted her comments on a General Nursing Board, and asked for opinions. But it seemed that the only opinions she actually wanted were from other LPNs or RNs that agreed with her. My point was that if you don't TRULY want the opinion of ANYONE who reads the post, then don't go to the general discussion area-use a specialty area where you know the majority will do what you want-agree with you.

    "Thats's just another example of where some tact should've been used...you as a professional person know just what you're saying & know just how you're relaying your messages here. You say that the LPNs are slinging inflammatory remarks...I think you really need to recheck your above comment about "them" posting here on the General Discussion Board...& you'll understand their position!"


    The above proves my point-that some LPNs are so insecure and defensive about themselves and the initials behind their name that they see a disagreeing opinion as bashing, instead of an opposing opinion, and see insult where none is meant.


    Now that you have succeeded in turning SusyK's thread into a clone of the 2 closed ones, I will again retire from this discussion, as there is obviously nothing new to say and nothing more to be gained, after well over 500 posts on the subject in the last few weeks.
  9. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH


    There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments & expressing that...as long as it's not at someone else's expense.
    OK, what I don't get is how is my being proud of myself EVER at someone else's expense? (I am not offended by other people's accomplishments, why would someone else be of mine?).
  10. by   mattsmom81
    OK, Fergus, I'll bite here and offer some anecdote...

    Ever worked with someone who seems oblivious to all that needs attention in the unit, ignoring ringing phones and beeping monitors to talk endlessly about him/herself, his/her degrees and high falutin' future plans? The nurse that walks onto the unit and immediately wants to draw attention, despite the fact you're trying to get shift report and/or handle a crisis?

    I have.... too many times. Intrinsic pride is one thing, ego is another..... It's really NOT an education issue. It's an EGO issue, IMHO that is really behind the controversy on threads such as this one....

    Dare I say this? MOST (not all, mind you, but MOST) nurses I have encountered in the above category have been BSN's...and I have to wonder 1) where this egotistical attitude comes from and 2) how is this helpful to anyone in nursing if we look at the big picture?

    The beneficiaries of our 'splitting' profession are the hospitals and the BSN institutions who make big $$$ off propogating elitism and divisiveness in our ranks. JMHO as always.

    Of course all are free to disagree.
  11. by   mario_ragucci
    Mario chimes again, like an old fashioned Swiss clock !

    The times in my life when i learned the most about myself, and was able to take an inventory of what I had upstairs, was when I was being attacked. I'm still not beyond this, as my nursing instructor has recently attacked me. I handed in a research paper that was half-assed because my verbal knowledge took the cake when I presented before the class. Because the other students were new and less "there" I figured my power stood for something, and she'd have to give me an A, when comparing me to other people. I put minimal effort in the research paper.

    She shot me down hard, mentioning how much she expected from me, and how my paper was no reflection of me. Now I have to re-do the entire research paper, on Spring break, because I figured adequate effort would make it. This is where showing intelligence is sometimes uncool, and if you do, you have to hold your own standard at all times

    Don't let education, or titles, make you complacent. There will be people who will call you on it, and shoot you down (in flames)

    Also, your educational degrees are only tests of your short-term memory. Your working and long-term memory is not really able to be put through the test. Some whipper-snapper CNA, LPN or RN, with a working memory like an optical disk drive, may listen to you and assess your "abilities"

    Let people tear you down, if your foundation is weak. :kiss
  12. by   rncountry
    Mario, thank you for letting me know that what I wrote made sense to someone. We can continue to argue over assine things that do nothing more than to keep harming the profession, or we can stop and think a minute and figure out why we are here and what we need to do to go forward.
  13. by   fergus51
    Originally posted by mattsmom81
    OK, Fergus, I'll bite here and offer some anecdote...

    Ever worked with someone who seems oblivious to all that needs attention in the unit, ignoring ringing phones and beeping monitors to talk endlessly about him/herself, his/her degrees and high falutin' future plans? The nurse that walks onto the unit and immediately wants to draw attention, despite the fact you're trying to get shift report and/or handle a crisis?

    I have.... too many times. Intrinsic pride is one thing, ego is another..... It's really NOT an education issue. It's an EGO issue, IMHO that is really behind the controversy on threads such as this one....

    Dare I say this? MOST (not all, mind you, but MOST) nurses I have encountered in the above category have been BSN's...and I have to wonder 1) where this egotistical attitude comes from and 2) how is this helpful to anyone in nursing if we look at the big picture?
    I understand about not liking working with nurses who don't do their job because they are concerned with their egos. I work with a couple nurses who are like that and brag about education or experience (the old "when I was in nursing school we were so much better than you newbies" type that are too busy sitting on their experienced bums to do any work and the "I am so smart I know everything from my BSN program" type). Both types drive me nuts, because they don't do their jobs. I would imagine you would be just as put off by a nurse who doesn't do her job for any reason whether she be an ADN or BSN. And let's face it, no one on this bb works with others here, so I don't see that as a reason to react hurtfully when a nurse here is proud of her education. No one knows how the other nurses function in their hospitals.

    I agree that egotistical uncaring (key word being uncaring, I actually don't mind ego from people who do their jobs well) nurses are of no help to the profession. I also think that defensive nurses who enjoy ripping eachother down a peg are not doing the profession any good. We have way to many nurses who say "Who the hell do you think you are? Do you think you're special? Because you're not" if you have any pride in what you do.

    I don't understand why we as nurses always see eachother as competition instead of as colleagues. Maybe it is because we are women, but I don't understand why we don't rejoice in eachother's accomplishments (and that includes getting an LPN liscence or an ADN degree or a BSN or an NP or surviving nursing for 20 years). I respect and admire nurses with more education, knowledge, experience or skills, than I have. I don't consider a nurse talking about her 20+ years of nursing as an insult to me because I am not that experienced yet. I appreciate that she has a lot to teach me, and yes, maybe there are some things I can share with her as well.

    I don't understand why we aren't more supportive of eachother. With all the bs we have to put up with, why can't we encourage eachother to take pride in whatever we can?????

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