12-Step Coercion - page 15

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More

  1. by   Tweety
    Quote from CHATSDALE
    3rd shiftguy you think everyone who disagrees with you is "closed minded" don't take umbriage but are you really open minded yourself====
    As I pass over 7,000 posts, I can honestly say I've been fairly open-minded. I have strong feelings about somethings and over the course of my life have come to those decisions and they will never be swayed, so no I'm not open-minded in all areas.

    I don't think everyone who disagrees with me is closed minded. In fact I can only think of two posters that I've called closed minded recently. Not bad considering the 100s of posters I've read on this board.
  2. by   Txsizzler
    Originally Posted by Dixiedi
    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.
    I agree that there are some out there making every effort to take every mention of God out of everyday life. I also believe that many of our country's laws where built upon God ordained principles. I believe however that freedom of choice (or religion) should be up to the individual. Nobody should be forced to believe in God...... all should be free to choose.
  3. by   Txsizzler
    Originally Posted by Dixiedi
    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals.
    A few more thoughts on this statement: Our government was set up by Christians, who wanted to follow God. Too many people have forgotten that God established Three Institutions among men:

    1. The Church
    2. The Government, and
    3. The Family


    The purpose of the government is to govern, to regulate the conduct of people, to approve what is good and to disaprove what is evil. The Book of Proverbs in the Old Testament is filled with contrasts between moral leaders of government (rulers) and immoral Leaders of government.

    Government is not simply about government "services". According to the Bible, one of the main purposes of government is to resist evil, to fight against evil.

    This is something that the government should be doing. All law is - by its very nature - the imposition of someone's morality - against the "morality" of those who do not agree.

    The government enforces the morality of the citizen against the morality of the murderer.

    The government enforces the morality of the citizen against the morality of the drug dealer.

    People say that government can't legislate morality. That is simply a falsehood. The fact is that ALL law IS the legislation of morality.

    It is impossible to say that something is illegal, without also saying that the action which is illegal is also immoral. That IS the basis of a Judeo-Christian society.
    Last edit by Txsizzler on Jun 18, '04
  4. by   Tweety
    Quailfeather. That is a well-throught out, level-headed post! Woot!
  5. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from 3rdShiftGuy
    Quailfeather. That is a well-throught out, level-headed post! Woot!

    I second that motion Tweety!!!....I couldn't have said it better.
  6. by   leslie :-D
    after finishing all 19 pages of this extremely animated, sometimes oppositional thread, may i say "AAAAAAAAAMEN!"
  7. by   railroad
    Hello, I'm writing to you because I think it's rather pertinent to my situation. I was recently terminated at my job for "diverting drugs". This was not true, but it did look bad. I did have several mischarting errors, but stealing drugs had nothing to do with it. I was told during my termination interview that if I "admitted to having a (drug) problem" I would recieve treatement, and be able to continue on at the site. They gave me this choice at least 3 times, and I almost, at one point just said "yes, I have a problem", but I could NOT bring myself to admit to a problem that I didn't have. I don't drink, smoke, or take illegal drugs. Advil is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a Zantac if I had a particularly stressful day. It may be important to mention here that they didn't offer me a drug test which I would have gladly taken, and no one can say that my behavior indicated intoxication, nor that they ever suspected me of stealing drugs. My reputation at the hospital was un-besmirched, and I had nothing, but praise for my capabilities from other nurses who knew me, and the medical staff with which I worked.

    My question to you, or anyone who may have any relevant information is this; Can I lose my license over this? I am just sick about the whole situation. Do I need to get an attorney? I love being a nurse, have worked tirelessly at it, and would like to continue.

    The whole scenario smacks of the Witch Trials; "Admit that you have renounced God, and you can live. If you maintain your innocence, you'll go to the stake.

    Thank you







    Quote from elkpark
    Also, no one is forcing people to attend meetings and participate in AA -- it is merely offered as an option if a person wants to retain or regain a license to practice nursing. None of us has a RIGHT to a license as an RN (or LPN, or any other occupation that requires a license) -- we are granted a license by the licensing board, which is responsible to the public for ensuring that the persons it licenses are able to practice safely.

    The impaired professional programs all got started because people were (rightly) upset about losing their licenses (and their professions) permanently for a mistake or problem that could be resolved, and it was felt that professionals with drug or alcohol problems would be better motivated to seek treatment and sobriety if they had a chance of getting their licenses back (I was around back when this was considered a controversial idea! ). So, the licensing boards attempted to develop programs which could offer people a chance to return to professional practice while still protecting the public safety. These programs typically combine active participation in an ongoing treatment program with lots of monitoring.

    The BONs in each state issue us licenses on the condition that we continue to meet their requirements to their satisfaction. None of us owns her/his license or has a right to her/his license. The entire process is voluntary -- if someone doesn't want to meet the board's requirements, including participating in a 12-step program (that is offered as an voluntary alternative to just losing your license forever), that person is free to pursue some other line of work ...

    I don't mean to sound harsh, or critical of any particular individual -- but that's the reality of the situation ...
  8. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from railroad
    Hello, I'm writing to you because I think it's rather pertinent to my situation. I was recently terminated at my job for "diverting drugs". This was not true, but it did look bad. I did have several mischarting errors, but stealing drugs had nothing to do with it. I was told during my termination interview that if I "admitted to having a (drug) problem" I would recieve treatement, and be able to continue on at the site. They gave me this choice at least 3 times, and I almost, at one point just said "yes, I have a problem", but I could NOT bring myself to admit to a problem that I didn't have. I don't drink, smoke, or take illegal drugs. Advil is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a Zantac if I had a particularly stressful day. It may be important to mention here that they didn't offer me a drug test which I would have gladly taken, and no one can say that my behavior indicated intoxication, nor that they ever suspected me of stealing drugs. My reputation at the hospital was un-besmirched, and I had nothing, but praise for my capabilities from other nurses who knew me, and the medical staff with which I worked.

    My question to you, or anyone who may have any relevant information is this; Can I lose my license over this? I am just sick about the whole situation. Do I need to get an attorney? I love being a nurse, have worked tirelessly at it, and would like to continue.

    The whole scenario smacks of the Witch Trials; "Admit that you have renounced God, and you can live. If you maintain your innocence, you'll go to the stake.

    Thank you
    I'd get a lawyer! Have a complete drug screen done and file suit against this hospital.
    It sounds like a witch trial and I wouldn't give them the opportunity to put me any more into the defensive. I would at least attempt to put myself on the offensive and them on the defensive.
    Get that drug screen done as soon as possible. As long as you can prove you were not taking drugs yourself, they would be forced into coming up with another reason for your diverting them. Well, that only leaves 1 possibility, that would be trafficking and I doubt they would jump into that as it opens up a can of worms their imaginations can't produce evidence for.
  9. by   Nurse Ratched
    I have to say get a lawyer. Maybe it's naive of me, but I can't envision admitting to a drug problem I didn't have. I'd rather lose my license.

    I'd say give me urine, blood, hair tests - whatever - won't find a thing.
  10. by   mscsrjhm
    I agree. I would rather lose my license than admit something that is false.

    (Back to the original thread for a moment (re coercion).
    Two aspects to an acknowledged drug problem: punishment and treatment.
    Punishment is mandatory. I believe treatment should be voluntary.)

    Mschrisco
  11. by   loerith
    You need a lawyer...preferrably a nurse lawyer. And a good one. This might cost you some major money up front, but you may be able to recoup it all.

    Good luck and dont take this!

    And get a hair sample asap. One that is relevant to the drugs they say were taken.


    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  12. by   zephyr
    Quote from railroad
    Hello, I'm writing to you because I think it's rather pertinent to my situation. I was recently terminated at my job for "diverting drugs".
    Thank you
    Losing one's license, as in railroad's case, may depend on what state you live in. I believe that all boards of nursing must prove violation of your nurse practice act via due process before action can be taken on a license.

    What "proof" is there against you, railroad? Was sloppy charting involved? If so, even if they can't prove drug diversion, they may be able to prove that you violated hospital policy and get you on another charge more related to incompetence rather than diversion.

    Diversion is a serious charge as is being terminated for suspected diversion if diversion didn't occur. Either your former workplace has some hefty evidence against you or you have reason for suing them.

    IMO, providing a drug screen days after the event won't be very helpful except to show that you were not using those drugs that take more than a few days to be excreted...like marijuana, etc.

    Anyway, I hope this works out in your best interest. If you really are using, I hope you get the help you need and if you aren't, I hope you get $$ for your pain and suffering.

    Z~
  13. by   serene992
    Alcoholics Anonymous is a spiritual program for people who have been in Hell and find a way out through working the 12 steps of the program. Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell whether they choose to practice it 24/7 or for one hour a week.
    The concept of the Higher Power in the program is the beginning of the healing process and the important key to living one day at a time, one moment at a time without using a mind altering substance. The original AA program has been acknowledged for being one of the most significant developments of the 20th century. From this simple program hundreds of other 12 step programs have developed. The many different addictions that have plagued man since the beginning of time finally have a simple, fool proof support group with a far better recovery and relapse prevention record than professional, high priced therapy programs. Countless lives of those addicted to mind altering substances/behaviors and those affected by loving them have a way of living joyous and free thanks to a group of alcoholic men and women who created the AA program.
    The court systems frequently sentence people with DUI's and drug convictions to attend AA meetings. This is a controversial issue also. By mandating attendance it does not mean that the person is going to identufy and admit to being an alcoholic/addict. What it does do is expose them to the presence of AA so that if and when the drinking/drugging leads to that moment in time when the person is on the brink of physical, emotional and/or spiritual death he/she might remember the AA meetings they attended and reach out for help.
    I feel that all nurses need exposure to the AA program to get an understanding of it's concepts. We are in intimate contact with the ravishes of the disease through our patients, families and yes folks even our peers. We are an important key in helping others learn the joy of living a sober life through knowing about what AA and it's 12 steps are about and where meetings are held in our communities.
    Let's be leaders of compassionate caring for those whose lives are a living hell due to alcoholism and addiction.

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