12-Step Coercion - page 14

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More

  1. by   Big Bab's
    Quote from Dixiedi
    First let me say that I used "big mouth folks" as a broad generalization, if you are not one, it should not offend you.

    Yes, this country was built on religious freedom, freedom for ALL of us to practice and believe as we please and to stand up in public forums and make it known. Why is it that athiests can stand up and demand God not be mentioned thus robbing me of my rights?
    The fact that the punishment is more difficult than a particular group of people choose for it to be does not bother me in the least bit. Addiction to anything may be a a desease but it is up to each individual to decide if they are going to pick the bottle up. No desease can casue fine motor movements of that nature. It's a choice, the choice wsa made and the states choice of punishment should be abided by. Period. The punishment should not be a choice, come on, next you will suggest we give hard core criminals a choice. And don't say no...we've gone from corporal punishment to slaps on the hands, no reason for me to think the liberals in the country won't take it yet one step further.
    I guess I missed the part where anybody "demanded" that God not be mentioned??....They can mention God all they want as long as we have an alternative "program" that doesn't require everybody to do it....there are many alternatives out there Rational Recovery, Smart recovery, Women in recovery, Moderation management....etc......Why do you think that 12 step programs are the only way??......Its obvious you know nothing about 12 step programs, maybe you should do some research on the subject before you form such a skewed opinion on the topic?.....and for the record I DO NOT think addiction is a disease, I use Rational Recovery which teachs that "recovery" and "abstinence" is a "choice" that we make, I have made a conscious decision to NEVER USE AGAIN, I also have come to realize that my actions and use was the result my selfish and thoughtless BEHAVIOR and I CHOOSE to never act that way again!....This is what Rational Recovery teachs, that it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to stay clean and sober, I must be able to rely upon myself and not a "group conscious" to see that I stay that way.....BUT I know that this approach will NOT work for everyone!!.....There needs to be alternatives so that we can ALL find what works for each of us!!.....What is wrong with that?!??!......Chemo works for some cancer patients and not for others, as does radiation.....but since one works for many does that mean we should make it the only treatment for patients?!?!....Once again, I DO NOT believe in the disease theory but the boards do, so I guess we need to put it in their language to get the point across!?!?
  2. by   Tweety
    Quote from Dixiedi
    Bit it's only illegal because a few spoke long and loud and changed the way this country works!

    Proud to be one of those big mouth folks who want to change the way this country works. Using the Constitution for fairness and equality for all.
  3. by   mscsrjhm
    Previously by Dixie: "The fact that the punishment is more difficult than a particular group of people choose for it to be does not bother me in the least bit"
    This is the exact point: Punishment should not be illegal, forced religious treatment. I would personally rather pick up trash beside the road in a bright orange jumpsuit than be forced into a "treatment". (I know nothing personally about AA or NA, but I cannot stand the liberal "psychobabble-gonna fix everyone-all you need is love" stuff.)

    Mschrisco
  4. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from Big Bab's
    I guess I missed the part where anybody "demanded" that God not be mentioned??....They can mention God all they want as long as we have an alternative "program" that doesn't require everybody to do it....there are many alternatives out there Rational Recovery, Smart recovery, Women in recovery, Moderation management....etc......Why do you think that 12 step programs are the only way??......Its obvious you know nothing about 12 step programs, maybe you should do some research on the subject before you form such a skewed opinion on the topic?.....and for the record I DO NOT think addiction is a disease, I use Rational Recovery which teachs that "recovery" and "abstinence" is a "choice" that we make, I have made a conscious decision to NEVER USE AGAIN, I also have come to realize that my actions and use was the result my selfish and thoughtless BEHAVIOR and I CHOOSE to never act that way again!....This is what Rational Recovery teachs, that it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to stay clean and sober, I must be able to rely upon myself and not a "group conscious" to see that I stay that way.....BUT I know that this approach will NOT work for everyone!!.....There needs to be alternatives so that we can ALL find what works for each of us!!.....What is wrong with that?!??!......Chemo works for some cancer patients and not for others, as does radiation.....but since one works for many does that mean we should make it the only treatment for patients?!?!....Once again, I DO NOT believe in the disease theory but the boards do, so I guess we need to put it in their language to get the point across!?!?
    I said right at the outset of the thread that I know nothing of the twelve steps. My point all along has been that (good program of not, God mentioned or not) it's what the state requires. It should be accepted and followed through if the license is to be maintained.
    Punishment and restrictions are not meant to be easy, enjoyed, preferred or anything else. They are to be followed.
    I've also mentioned that the relatively few athiests in this country (by count there are many, I am sure but by ratio, not so many) are quickly taking the rights of the majority and fluching them down the toilet. That is very lopsided and we hear about it in nearly every aspect of our lives these days.
    My desire is to convince those who would take my rights to pray to God away from me to stop. We need to live side by side and when God is mentioned, it is up tot he atheist to insert whatever word or phrase they want to or just ignore it completely. That's what I do when Jesus is mentioned as the savior. It doesn't offend me in the least that some people are Christians, nor does it offend me that some are athiests. Why should it offend an athiest that most of us are not?
  5. by   Tweety
    That silly little thing about separation of church and state gets in the way of so many people's rights now doesn't it.

    Dixiedi, what is disturbing about your posts of late is how closed minded they are. "I think this way, why can't you? The majority feels this way, why can't you?". That's neither reasonable, fair, nor legal. We aren't a free country until we all are free. If you have to trample on the "rights" of the majority to make it fair for all that's just too bad.
  6. by   CHATSDALE
    3rd shiftguy you think everyone who disagrees with you is "closed minded" don't take umbriage but are you really open minded yourself====
  7. by   Havin' A Party!
    Quote from CHATSDALE
    3rd shiftguy you think everyone who disagrees with you is "closed minded"...
    Chats -- Gotta jump back in on that one.

    Not trying to convince you or anyone else out there. But, in my several months here, gotta say Tweets is probably one of the most -- if not the most -- open-minded of the folks on the board.

    Review his many posts on a slew of different subjects. He'll listen / consider others posters' positions / respond earnestly / reason things out well / modify his stance if justified / and do all the preceding in kindness and without malice.

    Think we're having a cool chat here. But the above quote is simply not accurate, and as a result, unfair to a valued member of this forum.

    Know we can all get emotional sometimes. Been there. So I'm not throwing stones or placing myself above anyone.

    Would like to suggest / ask that we all respond as if we were together, face-to-face and debating a fellow human. Thanks!
  8. by   Nurse Ratched
    Thank you, LarryG. Please, *everyone* refrain from personal attacks on other posters. This has been a productive discussion on the appropriateness/legality of some mandated treatments for impaired nurses. Lets keep it on track. It is NOT a discussion on the place of religion in modern American society.
  9. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from dixiedi
    would it hurt any athiest to pray to god. no. it's just an excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs.
    are you saying that it would not hurt anyone to be forced to pray? if so then why would the u.s. state department be reporting on such human rights violations as mentioned below?

    "in taliban-controlled areas, the taliban had decreed that all muslims were required to take part in five daily prayers. those who were observed not praying at appointed times or who were late attending prayer were subject to punishment, including severe beatings. friday noon prayers at mosques reportedly were compulsory for all muslim men;"

    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/sa/8222.htm



    isn't it just fine and dandy that my tax monies go to supporting the state department to roam the world looking for human rights violations when right here in the land of the free and home of the brave, the government forces people to pray.


    "and it is one of the most blatant and pervasive violations of constitutional rights in the united states today. after all, even murderers on death row are not forced to pray."

    archie brodsky
    senior research associate, harvard medical school's program in psychiatry and the law
    "aa abuse"
    http://www.peele.net/lib/aaabuse.html
  10. by   Txsizzler
    Quote from tommyperkins


    Isn't it just fine and dandy that my tax monies go to supporting the State Department to roam the world looking for human rights violations when right here in the land of the free and home of the brave, the government forces people to pray.

    No one is being forced to pray at 12 step meetings. It is an option..... some 12 step groups encourage it, but I have never heard of praying being mandatory. I believe that anyone that is forced to go to group support meetings are going to find something to gripe about..... why can't people with drug addictions try to find some useful information in these meetings to use in there everyday lives instead of this "us versus them" attitude?
  11. by   Quailfeather
    I agree with LarryG, Tweety, and Nurse Ratched that this topic has generated some lively, productive discussion. I also share their concern that some posters are using this thread as a podium to express their personal religious views and commentary. In one sense, I feel that we should be allowed to voice our opinions (after all, it is a free country). However, when those personal opinions are presented as indisputable fact, with no room for debate, they become divisive and this thread will ultimately degenerate into an "us versus them" standoff with little or no productive discourse. That being said, I would like to address a few opinions that I feel merit debate. One particular poster states:

    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals.
    I was not aware that this country was built upon any God, let alone a particular God. Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers of this country stated:

    "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

    In fact, Jefferson made it very clear that this country was not founded on a belief in God when he said:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
    Thomas Jefferson
    (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President


    On the subject of the legality of forced prayer, the same poster claims:

    ... it's only illegal because a few spoke long and loud and changed the way this country works!
    Forced prayer and coerced religious exercise is illegal because our Constitution says so, and has always said so, not because some "big mouth folks", atheists, or liberals deemed it that way.

    "The very reason for the First Amendment
    is to make the people of this country free
    to think, speak, write and worship as they wish,
    not as the Government commands."
    Justice Hugo L. Black
    (1886-1971) US Supreme Court Justice


    And this claim:

    Would it actually hurt any atheist to say God? Would it hurt any athiest to pray to God. NO. It's just an excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs.
    An atheist should NEVER be compelled to say God or pray to God, regardless of circumstance. It is not an "excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs"; it is free exercise of our human, inalienable right to religious freedom.

    The above poster also states that:

    The fact that the punishment is more difficult than a particular group of people choose for it to be does not bother me in the least bit. Addiction to anything may be a a desease but it is up to each individual to decide if they are going to pick the bottle up. No desease can casue fine motor movements of that nature. It's a choice, the choice wsa made and the states choice of punishment should be abided by.
    And:

    I said right at the outset of the thread that I know nothing of the twelve steps. My point all along has been that (good program of not, God mentioned or not) it's what the state requires. It should be accepted and followed through if the license is to be maintained.
    Punishment and restrictions are not meant to be easy, enjoyed, preferred or anything else. They are to be followed.
    How did the discussion of addiction and mandated religious treatment turn into crime and punishment? This is way off topic. The subject of this thread is alternative programs for addicted nurses that mandate 12-step attendance. Alternative programs are just that.....alternative to discipline. Punishment is discipline and, as such, should be discussed in a separate thread about the disciplinary division of the boards of nursing. We are talking about treatment options here, not "choices of punishment", although I have to admit that some may find mandated 12-step attendance more a form of punishment than treatment.

    It seems to me that there is fear, among some people, that those who advocate freedom from religion are attempting abolish religion all together. That is just not so. As a godless liberal, I respect the right of others to believe and worship their beliefs. Likewise, I advocate the right to disbelieve without political or personal censure. As a nurse who once struggled with alcoholism, I respect the right of other addicted nurses to choose their own method of recovery and I advocate against the unconstitutional practice of forcing recovering nurses to accept and participate in a religious treatment in order to preserve their professional license.
  12. by   loerith
    Quote from Dixiedi
    We are all painfully aware of how every mention of the God that this country was built on is being shoved under the carpet by a few godless individuals. As usual, he who speaks loudest or heard the most often becomes "right" in the minds of those too small minded to think for themselves. The masses follow along like sheep behind those with the biggest mouths. It begins when they are in preschool and continues throughout their lives. I really feel sorry for them.
    I personally believe in Jesus Christ, AA, and the Twelve Steps. I just happen to believe also in the Constitution. I thought freedom to choose a religion or no religion was part of that.

    Oh welll......btw...

    loerith is not a godless individual.

    And logic and reason continue to win.

    Nice try.....no cigar.



    Love and Peace ,
    loerith
  13. by   tommyperkins
    Wow!!! Especially the quote by Justice Black!

    Quote from Quailfeather
    I agree with LarryG, Tweety, and Nurse Ratched that this topic has generated some lively, productive discussion. I also share their concern that some posters are using this thread as a podium to express their personal religious views and commentary. In one sense, I feel that we should be allowed to voice our opinions (after all, it is a free country). However, when those personal opinions are presented as indisputable fact, with no room for debate, they become divisive and this thread will ultimately degenerate into an "us versus them" standoff with little or no productive discourse. That being said, I would like to address a few opinions that I feel merit debate. One particular poster states:



    I was not aware that this country was built upon any God, let alone a particular God. Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers of this country stated:

    "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

    In fact, Jefferson made it very clear that this country was not founded on a belief in God when he said:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
    Thomas Jefferson
    (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President


    On the subject of the legality of forced prayer, the same poster claims:



    Forced prayer and coerced religious exercise is illegal because our Constitution says so, and has always said so, not because some "big mouth folks", atheists, or liberals deemed it that way.

    "The very reason for the First Amendment
    is to make the people of this country free
    to think, speak, write and worship as they wish,
    not as the Government commands."
    Justice Hugo L. Black
    (1886-1971) US Supreme Court Justice


    And this claim:



    An atheist should NEVER be compelled to say God or pray to God, regardless of circumstance. It is not an "excuse to stay drunk or hopped up on drugs"; it is free exercise of our human, inalienable right to religious freedom.

    The above poster also states that:



    And:



    How did the discussion of addiction and mandated religious treatment turn into crime and punishment? This is way off topic. The subject of this thread is alternative programs for addicted nurses that mandate 12-step attendance. Alternative programs are just that.....alternative to discipline. Punishment is discipline and, as such, should be discussed in a separate thread about the disciplinary division of the boards of nursing. We are talking about treatment options here, not "choices of punishment", although I have to admit that some may find mandated 12-step attendance more a form of punishment than treatment.

    It seems to me that there is fear, among some people, that those who advocate freedom from religion are attempting abolish religion all together. That is just not so. As a godless liberal, I respect the right of others to believe and worship their beliefs. Likewise, I advocate the right to disbelieve without political or personal censure. As a nurse who once struggled with alcoholism, I respect the right of other addicted nurses to choose their own method of recovery and I advocate against the unconstitutional practice of forcing recovering nurses to accept and participate in a religious treatment in order to preserve their professional license.

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