12-Step Coercion - page 13
the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More
Jun 16, '04Quote from HeadhurtAppreciated your real and honest post.Now...I get to toss my hat into the ring...
While I don't agree with your stance on our licences being provileges, I wanted to thank you for sharing your experience.
This has turned out to be an interesting thread. Everyone's done a nice job in presenting their views / opinions / rationales.
Jun 16, '04Quote from tommyperkinsI was wondering if you had come across any treatment methods that are more successful than those we employ in America. I did hear on NPR the other day how somone helps heroin addicts break free of their addiction by having them carrry 25 pound rock for 25 miles, then strip off all their clothes and burn them with the rock (the rock is supposed to symbolize their addiction). I wonder what the success rate is for rock therapy? No, seriously, I KNOW you must have some research somewhere showing something that works, or should we addicts go on as best we can to the bitter ends (and I know you know what those are!)[font='Courier New']Have you ever considered that the American treatment system may be harmful rather than helpful? Many writers claim that it is harmful including Dr. Stanton Peele, Dr. Herbert Fingarette, and Dr. Jeff Schaler who last year was featured on ABC News' 20/20 with John Stossel. Could the American treatment industry be blackening the record of medicine, just as did Dr. Benjamin Rush who just happens to be the first medical professional to claim alcoholism is a disease?
[font='Courier New']Of Dr. Benjamin Rush, the "great" Revolutionary War doctor and signer of the [font='Courier New']Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his "History of the Medical Department of the U.S. Army", "By virtue of his social and professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, Benjamin Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more potent in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man of his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great vogue of
vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to the time of the Civil War."
On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 year old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. Vernon. He was of a "newer" school of medical thought than the two older doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned for a more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already been bled three times. "He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish it." was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not taken by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was bled for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown that they should have listened to Dick. Had they "taken no more blood from him,
our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the best light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified."
Jun 16, '04Quote from odatrnNice little summary there.... But place the responsibility for what has happened where it belongs: On the Board that decided the course of action, and the chosen behavior that sent people to them in the beginning.
Can't forget one of the principal root causes of all we're talking about: individual behavior and choices.
Jun 16, '04Quote from 3rdShiftGuySee this the same as you.... Forcing an athesist to pray to God may not hurt the person, but it's illegal...
Jun 16, '04Quote from DixiediI'm not about to grant anyone an easy out on this.And my point is that even though a few big mouthed folk who are too sorry to do that time found a way out of it!...
Very much in favor of mandating program participation (but we can't legally force 'em into one that's religious based).
Individual responsibility is key.
Bet several of us could spend a couple of hours shooting the breeze on this in person... over a few cold ones.
Jun 16, '04Quote from LarryGJust wanted to bump this up for selfish reasons: to avoid taking the time to research this myself. (Leaving on vacation on Friday.)... seeking examples of suits premised on quality of advice / follow-up by AA (or other program) sponsor. Where perhaps the angle of attack was the lack of certifications, qualifications, etc. of the advisor...
Anyone have any examples? Thanks!
Jun 16, '04Bit it's only illegal because a few spoke long and loud and changed the way this country works!
Jun 16, '04Quote from DixiediAnd my point is that even though a few big mouthed folk who are too sorry to do that time found a way out of it! Fact is, even an athiest believes in something to explain the nature of this earth. Call it whatever they want, call it nature, God, Jahova, Buddah, eagles, wolves, whatever... they believe in something. Therefore they can do the time understanding that one man says God while another says wolf or that thing we can not define that allows this earth to exist where there was nothing.
Being hung up on semantics and taking the word God out of everything leaves some people with absolutely no spiritual leadership and that is something every human needs; even those who aren't sure what it is but they are sure it's not God.
1) Many athiests believe there is NOTHING out there, "You're born, you live, you die, thats it."....Not saying I believe this but many do, and to force them into these meetings is wrong wrong wrong!!!....For some it is too offensive to sit thru.
2) I personally know MANY people who are clean without ANY PROGRAM, including myself.
3) NONE OF US are trying to "get out of it"!!!.....We would just like a CHOICE as to what programs we can use, and there are many.
I've said it before and I'll say it again!...we should be required to do SOMETHING!!...but we should also have a say in what that SOMETHING is....and our abstinence should be monitored with random body fluid testing.....Why does that seem sooooo unreasonable to you?!?! :stone I know of no other "disease" that the "patient" has no say as to what treatments are going to be used!!....So why this one??....and could you please refrain from the name-calling?...ie. "big mouth folk" its very immature.
Jun 16, '04Quote from 3rdShiftGuyUm.....the point they are trying to make it that's it's illegal. Forcing an athesist to pray to God may not hurt the person, but it's illegal. In this country "the time" must be constitutional.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Jun 16, '04Quote from DixiediBit it's only illegal because a few spoke long and loud and changed the way this country works!
I could be wrong here but I recall that our country was founded on the premise of FREEDOM OF RELIGION?!?......Isn't that why the pilgrims came to America in the first place???.....Soooooooo actually we're just trying to get back to the way our country worked in the first place.
Jun 16, '04Quote from loerithI was allowed only fifteen minutes to speak and then turned over to the public relations director outside of the meeting. The Executive Director of the Board said she would look into the matter. The pr guy told me he thought it was all very interesting. He took my email address but I have not heard from him.Tommy,
What was the NC BoN's response to this presentation? Have you ever considered law school?
Love and Peace,
Several times in my life I have considered law school, but it's out of the question now unless I win the lottery.
Jun 16, '04Quote from DixiediThis link was included in the original link of this thread:Bit it's only illegal because a few spoke long and loud and changed the way this country works!
In case you don't care to read down it that far it reads "Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever"
Jun 16, '04Quote from Big Bab'sFirst let me say that I used "big mouth folks" as a broad generalization, if you are not one, it should not offend you.I could be wrong here but I recall that our country was founded on the premise of FREEDOM OF RELIGION?!?......Isn't that why the pilgrims came to America in the first place???.....Soooooooo actually we're just trying to get back to the way our country worked in the first place.
Yes, this country was built on religious freedom, freedom for ALL of us to practice and believe as we please and to stand up in public forums and make it known. Why is it that athiests can stand up and demand God not be mentioned thus robbing me of my rights?
The fact that the punishment is more difficult than a particular group of people choose for it to be does not bother me in the least bit. Addiction to anything may be a a desease but it is up to each individual to decide if they are going to pick the bottle up. No desease can casue fine motor movements of that nature. It's a choice, the choice wsa made and the states choice of punishment should be abided by. Period. The punishment should not be a choice, come on, next you will suggest we give hard core criminals a choice. And don't say no...we've gone from corporal punishment to slaps on the hands, no reason for me to think the liberals in the country won't take it yet one step further.