12-Step Coercion - page 11

the following presentation was given at the may 21, 2004 open forum of the north carolina board of nursing meeting:... Read More

  1. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from Nurse Ratched
    I will note that the relapse rate is horrendous almost regardless of which method of getting clean one chooses. Trust me, we professionals aren't doing so much better.
    Does that horrendous relapse rate also include those who have been through formal addiction treatment? When you say "we professionals" are you talking about nurses in general or are you talking about treatment professionals? Are you a treatment professional?
  2. by   Lemonhead
    Quote from elkpark
    Of course we have a right to due process, etc., in the restriction or revocation of our licenses, but what the "not a right" crowd (myself included) are saying is that you don't have an absolute right to have the license, regardless. There are many restrictions put on the licenses (not just nursing; professional licenses of any variety) by which you must abide, or lose the license. For instance, I can't ignore my state's Nurse Practice Act and do any crazy thing I feel like doing to patients, and keep my license. I can't practice impaired and keep my license. In states with continuing education requirements, you can't ignore the CE requirements and keep your license. You can't just demand a nursing license without going to school and passing the NCLEX, because you have a "right" to have a license. It is a privilege which is earned by meeting (and continuing to meet) requirements set by the licensing board under statutory authority granted it by the state.

    The comparison to property rights is a good one. We have a right to due process protections relative to real property that we have purchased, but we have no constitutional right to have the property ... You have to purchase the property in the first place; you have to pay property taxes; you may have local covenants or requirements about the condition in which you keep your property; there are all sorts of local, state and federal laws about what you can and can't do with your property. If you fail to pay your property taxes, there is a process which the local or state government must follow to take your property from you, but, if you keep not paying your taxes, eventually you will lose your property. If the government decides that it wants your property and invokes eminent domain, you have a right to challenge the process and to be compensated for the goverment taking your property away from you, but you don't get to say no to the government and keep your property.

    The license is not a right. Due process regarding the restriction or revocation of the license, once you have it, is, but not the license itself.
    Say what??? You're talking sideways here. "It is a right, it isn't a right, it is a right"....well, you're wrong. A property right is a property right according to the US Constitution, regardless of what the property is. And a professional license IS indeed a property right and cannot be taken without due process. In the message that I posted earlier, it clearly stated that ONCE earned, as in completing nursing school, this license becomes a property right. You've insinuated that I'm suggesting that we can take a jaunt to the local Walmart and pick up our license and have protection. You also state that my "comparison to property rights is a good one", it is NOT a "comparison"...a professional license IS a property right, not "compared" to one...
    Can you back up your statements? I think you've thrown a bit of legal rhetoric out there to confuse the reader. Bottom line, a professional license IS a property right with all of the same protections as any other property right. And yes, I'm talking about the nursing license that I "earned" via nursing school and state board exams...
    I'd appreciate if you could show some documentation to back up your comments.
  3. by   Lemonhead
    Quote from odatrn
    So all of the anger, and rhetoric about the religous part of the program? I understand you feel. Take it to the Boards who are putting you at the meetings. Give them all of these arguments, and figure out a compromise. But place the responsibility for what has happened where it belongs: On the Board that decided the course of action, and the chosen behavior that sent people to them in the beginning.

    In theory, that's a great idea. However, in the state of Ohio, all of the casemanagers are in recovery, via the 12 steps themselves. And, they believe it's the "only way". There is no compromising with the Board. It has been attempted and has not ended well for those that pursued it. There are stories of retaliation and of nurses being terminated from programs for not "cooperating" with the mandates. When I expressed difficulty with the 12 step programs, I was labeled, as they typically do, in "denial". I was told that there would be a recommendation to the manager of the program that I be returned to an intense inpatient rehab course of a minimum of 3 months, until I could "accept" that I was no different than anyone else in the 12 step meetings and that these were the folks that would "keep me alive". (This was after 12 months of being "clean" despite the 12 step program.) Straight from the mouth of a master's trained registered nurse state board caseworker. And try to imagine what a judge would do if someone walked in and requested some other mode. It just does not work and is not that simple.
    I had a "sponsor" that actually came in to my home and stole meds right from under my nose. I reported it, nothing was done. When I told a state board employee about it, the comeback..."well, why do you leave drugs out"....The program is protected, the sponsors are protected and the 12 step process is protected, because the very core of these programs, the state board casemonitors see it as an infalliable program. And if there are "problems" or "issues" it can only be because the nurse involved is "in denial".
  4. by   loerith
    Two quotes for ya by Bill W. Co-Founder of AA:

    "But conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic process; all other devices are but the foundation."

    The "James" referred to here is the "James" who wrote the book of "James" in the New Testament.

    and again.....

    "The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as the steps go, the steps are good Christianity, indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once."

    notice the word "precisely" here.

    That is all.


    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  5. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from lemonhead
    say what??? you're talking sideways here. "it is a right, it isn't a right, it is a right"....well, you're wrong. a property right is a property right according to the us constitution, regardless of what the property is. and a professional license is indeed a property right and cannot be taken without due process. in the message that i posted earlier, it clearly stated that once earned, as in completing nursing school, this license becomes a property right. you've insinuated that i'm suggesting that we can take a jaunt to the local walmart and pick up our license and have protection. you also state that my "comparison to property rights is a good one", it is not a "comparison"...a professional license is a property right, not "compared" to one...
    can you back up your statements? i think you've thrown a bit of legal rhetoric out there to confuse the reader. bottom line, a professional license is a property right with all of the same protections as any other property right. and yes, i'm talking about the nursing license that i "earned" via nursing school and state board exams...
    i'd appreciate if you could show some documentation to back up your comments.
    those are some excellent points, lemonhead. when elkpark writes:



    "the comparison to property rights is a good one. we have a right to due process protections relative to real property that we have purchased, but we have no constitutional right to have the property ..."



    elkpark needs to read a little more on not only property rights, but also the right to religious liberty as enshrined in our constitution:



    http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/property.htm



    [font='times new roman']http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...tsof/roots.htm
  6. by   loerith
    Tommy,

    What was the NC BoN's response to this presentation? Have you ever considered law school?



    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  7. by   tommyperkins
    Quote from lemonhead
    when i expressed difficulty with the 12 step programs, i was labeled, as they typically do, in "denial". i was told that there would be a recommendation to the manager of the program that i be returned to an intense inpatient rehab course of a minimum of 3 months, until i could "accept" that i was no different than anyone else in the 12 step meetings and that these were the folks that would "keep me alive".
    recall that in post # 18 mjlrn97 wrote:



    "frankly, i think this whole topic is a smokescreen to enable the subject of the op to continue to live in denial"



    [font='times new roman']perhaps mjlrn97 or anyone else from the 12-step programs or the treatment field can explain to us just what "denial" is.
  8. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from loerith
    Actually the original poster is correct, Although AA claims to be non-religious; it is indeed religious. Specifically,it includes as part of it's basic text quotations from the Bible and a prayer is said at the end of most meetings that is attributed to Jesus teaching his diciples. {The Lord's Prayer}

    The term "God" is used much more in meetings by members than the term "higher power". In AA, the afore mentioned basic text " The Big Book" uses lots and lots of religious practices/concepts like:

    1) prayer
    2) confession
    3) faith
    4) meditation


    AA has it's roots in a Christian movement called the Oxford Group.

    Besides all of this, how can you monitor someone's attendance at mandatory meetings when everyone's presence there is supposed to be anonymous? AA by it's very nature is 100% voluntary and was never meant to be probationary.


    Peace and Love,
    loerith
    Quotations from the bible are not necessarily religious once removed from the bible. I personally believe in God, I am not a Christian. I do not believe in teh New Testament; however, there are many useful quotes that can be taken from the bible that remind of how we are to behave towards one another.
    It's in the bible that Jesus said "he who is without sin cast the first stone." OK, nobody was able to csat the first stone.. BUT! What we see here is not a Christian quote, what we see here is that every human being does make mistakes. Christians, in particular, call those mistakes sin, but what it really is is a mistake. (Unless you are truely sicko and do harm against yourself or another on purpose)
    We can call those quotes religion or we can call tehm quotes from a very old book with many revisions that does hold words of wisdom that can only help us through our day.

    Confession is not a religious thing either. Yes, many religions encourage their members to confess their wrong doings. But confessing your wrong doings applies to everybody, even those without religion. Have you ever been to court over a traffic ticket. Did you plead no contest? Guilty with an explanation? You have just confessed and religion has nothing to do with it.

    Faith? What is having a little faith in yourself got to do with religion?

    Again, meditation is giving yourself time to think about "it." I sit silently, take a deep breath and think about how I am going to fit all my duties into an 8 hour shift without pulling my hair out. That is meditation and I rarely give a thought to God while doing it. Although I have many times said to myself "Jesus Christ, how am I going to get it all done!? And I do not believe Jesus was our savior, but he did have a lot of good things to say and that has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with morals.
  9. by   loerith
    I notice you didnt mention "prayer" in your post.

    Care to explain how this is not religious? Or "turning ones will and life over to God as we understand him"? Ever read the the Third Step Prayer from the Big Book?

    your turn...



    Love and Peace,
    loerith
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from tommyperkins
    Does that horrendous relapse rate also include those who have been through formal addiction treatment?
    Tommyperkins, I don't have any hard data, so I'm only going to go by what I've read a long time ago.

    The relapse rate for formal addiction programs is quite high. Not that after the seed of recovery is planted that those who relapse don't eventually find long-term clean time. But that relapse is so common it's almost considered one of the symptoms of recovery.

    That the relapse rate for formal addiction programs is so low is why insurance companies quit paying for them.

    Again, I have no facts, just spewing off things in my head.

    AA/NA in fact are one of the more successful treatment programs, especially because it's peer-to-peer, or it could be just heaven blessed. j/k
  11. by   Tweety
    Quote from loerith
    I notice you didnt mention "prayer" in your post.

    Care to explain how this is not religious? Or "turning ones will and life over to God as we understand him"? Ever read the the Third Step Prayer from the Big Book?

    your turn...



    Love and Peace,
    loerith

    I think where so many people are getting confused is that AA is not a religion and nondemoninational. People think because they aren't affiliated with a religion, that they are a 'spiritual' program that it's not religious. It's only semantics.

    To me it's very religious (and very Christian I might add), but it is not a religion. To be religious you don't have to be affiliated with a particular religion.
  12. by   Nurse Ratched
    Quote from tommyperkins
    Does that horrendous relapse rate also include those who have been through formal addiction treatment? When you say "we professionals" are you talking about nurses in general or are you talking about treatment professionals? Are you a treatment professional?
    I work in a medical psychiatric and addictions program, so I guess I consider myself a treatment professional, altho we do detox, not long term treatment. I am speaking based on my experience in that setting. I can tell you based on the return rate of our patients, whether set up with outpatient followup or longer term treatment in inpatient facilities, is very high. I have seen very little difference between keeping someone for three days versus keeping them for 10 days or a much longer inpatient stay at our facility or elsewhere. Ultimately, the person has to decide he/she wants to be sober.

    Relapse, as Tweety noted, is a part of the process, until the addicted person decides that sobriety is the number one most important thing in his/her life.
  13. by   Dixiedi
    Quote from loerith
    I notice you didnt mention "prayer" in your post.

    Care to explain how this is not religious? Or "turning ones will and life over to God as we understand him"? Ever read the the Third Step Prayer from the Big Book?

    your turn...



    Love and Peace,
    loerith
    I just missed it. Prayer, as is commonly defined is a religious thing but with an open mind one can see that it can be no more than an individual or group asking for the inner strength to get through the day. Again, not especially religious.
    Too many anti-religion people are so stuck on semantics that they fail to see more than one definition in anything. Everything is revolved around something, call it God, Alah, Budha, eagles, wolves, the sun, the earth, whatever! That doesn't mean any of it is religioin.

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