"Eating Our Young" and Ethics

CANRN, MSN, RN · Mar 14, 2000

I have been a nurse for almost three years. My first job was in a LTC facility as a nursing supervisor on the 2-10 shift, another opportunity to work in a hospital came along within three months and I took it. It was at a small hospital near me. After working on the surgical care unit for over a year, I wanted to expand and try something new...critical care. What I found on my first day at a new hospital were nurses who cut each other in the back CONSTANTLY!!!! I learned right away, there was not ONE nurse I could TRUST to help me if I needed help. I stayed for three months and left because the way I saw it, the only way I was going to survive was to become just like them and I couldn't do that. The next position was no different, so I am now doing agency nursing and do enjoy it but still not happy. The nurses at the facilities I go to are so happy to have the help, they are available to me for any questions I have.

I love cardiac nursing and want to become a critical care nuse, and have much to offer and much to learn.

I agree with someone who said something about "HIGH SCHOOL" Frankly, I think this is worse than high school, after all, we are suppose to be ADULTS!!!!!!!!!!

marisa23 · Mar 14, 2000

Originally posted by RNsToBe:
Hello:
We are a group of RN students in a BSN program in Northern California, and we are exploring the ethical implications of experienced nurses "eating their young". We would like to hear the perspective of experienced nurses, new grads/novice nurses and nursing students on this topic. Why do you think this behavior persists (ie., what are the dynamics or other factors that contribute to this behavior). What are your suggestions for breaking this attitudinal/behavioral cycle and for bridging the gap/improving relations between experienced and novice nurses? What do you think are the ethical ramifications (if any) of experienced nurses deliberately withholding information/support from novice nurses? It seems to us that supporting new nurses would be beneficial not only to the novice nurse, but also to the experienced nurses and to the unit as a whole. It seems that the team and unit would function more efficiently and the quality of patient care/patient safety would be better as a result. We acknowledge that there are many caring/supporting nurses working in the field and that "eating of the young" is a practice that is not practiced by the majority of nurses. However, we also acknowledge that it does persist; therefore, the purpose of this project is to better understand the reasons for and the repercussions of this behavior.
We appreciate your viewpoints.
Thank you,
RNsToBe

Dear California soon to be RN's,

It has been my experience that the nurses that are burned out are the ones that eat our young, or worse yet the nurses that are not sure of themselves. I feel it is the responsibility of the nurse manager to assign preceptors that are willing to mentor the new nurses. It is not an easy job sometimes, I know I am one of the preceptors in our PICU. However, if a nurse accepts the assignment to precept a nurse she should show compassion and a willingnenss to share her knowledge. I hope that each of you will have a preceptor that is willing to share her knowledge. If you are assigned a preceptor that treats you unfairly then report her. Trust me it is the only way to get the kind of orientation you need. I also recommend that new nurses carry a note pad in their pockets to jot answers to common questions. It is a big help and keeps you from having to repeat questions over and over. Remember that drug books and journals are also and excellent source for new nurses. If you are not sure about a medicine look it up you'll remember it better and chances are that is what your preceptor is going to tell you anyway. Good luck in your careers I love being a nurse it is hard but it is rewarding, not at all what i thought but then there is little in life that is. Good luck.

Mijourney · Mar 16, 2000

Originally posted by RNsToBe:
Hello:
We are a group of RN students in a BSN program in Northern California, and we are exploring the ethical implications of experienced nurses "eating their young". We would like to hear the perspective of experienced nurses, new grads/novice nurses and nursing students on this topic. Why do you think this behavior persists (ie., what are the dynamics or other factors that contribute to this behavior). What are your suggestions for breaking this attitudinal/behavioral cycle and for bridging the gap/improving relations between experienced and novice nurses? What do you think are the ethical ramifications (if any) of experienced nurses deliberately withholding information/support from novice nurses? It seems to us that supporting new nurses would be beneficial not only to the novice nurse, but also to the experienced nurses and to the unit as a whole. It seems that the team and unit would function more efficiently and the quality of patient care/patient safety would be better as a result. We acknowledge that there are many caring/supporting nurses working in the field and that "eating of the young" is a practice that is not practiced by the majority of nurses. However, we also acknowledge that it does persist; therefore, the purpose of this project is to better understand the reasons for and the repercussions of this behavior.
We appreciate your viewpoints.
Thank you,
RNsToBe

"Eating of our young" or new is common in most occupations in my opinion. I agree with other posts that indicate that there is no one reason. I will say that sometimes, the type of nursing degree or school that the new grad or employee graduated determines how he/she is treated. When I was in school to become an RN, some LPNs were verbal about how they felt about new RN grads. Being rather verbal myself, I reminded them that they too can choose to go back to school and pursue an RN degree. You know what? They did, and now they are just as nice since they have become RNs. I guess they had to walk a mile in a new grad and RN's shoes.

On the other hand, I have learned from some excellent LPN practitioners. They taught me many little patient care "tricks" that helped make my job easier. I also have had some really sorry RN practitioners, even master's prepared nurses that were either my preceptor or part of the administrative staff. I had to wonder why they bothered going into nursing in the first place.

I will end this by saying that there are a great number of nurses that did not pursue nursing because they necessarily had this idealistic, altruistic notion that they would help make the world a better place. Best wishes on your study.

Shelly23 · Apr 28, 2000

I am going to graduate in a couple of weeks and know what you are talking about. I have actually been told that this happens! I have seen what the RNs, LPNs, and even CNAs do when there is a new face on their unit. I think if the nurses that are doing this were asked to remember what it was like when they started it may help the situation. Everybody was a student, new grad, or even a new employee at one time in their lives so I think reminding them of that may help. I think that it is also very hard for other RNs LPNs and CNAs to have new nurses that are younger then them as charge nurses or even coworkers. I think that this is also a problem. I think that a way that this can be corrected is to make a promise to ourselves that we will try never to make all new nurse feel welcome and treat them with respect.

Shelly23 · Apr 28, 2000

I am going to graduate in a couple of weeks and know what you are talking about. I have actually been told that this happens! I have seen what the RNs, LPNs, and even CNAs do when there is a new face on their unit. I think if the nurses that are doing this were asked to remember what it was like when they started it may help the situation. Everybody was a student, new grad, or even a new employee at one time in their lives so I think reminding them of that may help. I think that it is also very hard for other RNs LPNs and CNAs to have new nurses that are younger then them as charge nurses or even coworkers. I think that this is also a problem. I think that a way that this can be corrected is to make a promise to ourselves that we will try never to make all new nurse feel welcome and treat them with respect.

goldilocksrn · May 5, 2000

I agree that nurses eat their young, and they do it for several reasons. For one, to be a good preceptor, you must be very patient and informative and that takes time. They must continue to teach and instruct under the same patient load and guess what-they don't get a damn thing for doing it! On top of everything else, "older" rns tell me that the new grads are starting out very close in salary to the nurses that have been in hospitals for years. So who can blame them for being a little frustrated and taking it out on the new guy. I have been an RN for 3 years and I too was "eaten" by more experienced RNs. My reply was just to establish my own routine and "toughen up" Now I do just fine. So, is it ethical for nurses to eat their young?-No, it isn't very nice. But is it nice to stretch out overworked RNS even thinner to train the new guy with lots of very important questions? No.

jtfreel · May 6, 2000

Somethings to think about: I have been accused of "not being available when needed" and "not being there" etc. At the times, the new RN was RIGHT. My reality? This unit is used by the hospital as the training floor for all new nurses. We are supposed to precep new grads for 3 to 6 months and then they transfer to units with "more advanced requirements." Folks, I am talking about a constant turnover in new RN's, LPN's and CNA's. There is no additional staffing to assist because the budget does not allow for training as a funded FTE requirement. My unit is a 42 bed general medical surgical unit with patients of an average age of 75. We have the same JCAHO and QI and IFC requirements as every other unit. We average 10 surgeries, 9 admissions, and 9 discharges and numerous procedures per day. The unit has one unit secretary and 2 medication carts. We work in 2 21 patient teams. I would love to have the time to be a dedicated preceptor. I would love to work with a new grad for at least 1 year. I would love to have more than one RN per team.

Administration made the decision to use one unit for precepting. It was a financial decision. When precepting is an "expected part" of the job with no thought to additional time and support to make it work, it simply piles more work on the all ready over worked and short changes the new grad. I am not burned out. I do not have an attitude. I have attempted, with others, to address issues openly and constructively. The basics for all decisions and the basics for all denials of recommendations for improvements comes back to money (always) and to the need to "hold the bottom line."

The State Nurses Association and JCAHO requires "sufficient numbers of RN's" but does not specify further. Both want an organized orientation program and list some mandatory inclusions. That's it.

The people who control the budget control the working environment. And that is NOT nursing. I stay because of an intense love for patient care and the belief that I am assisting them to achieve their desired level of health. In the health care arena, I do what I can on a day to day basis and that is as good as it gets.

hag · May 8, 2000

Originally posted by RNsToBe:
Hello:
We are a group of RN students in a BSN program in Northern California, and we are exploring the ethical implications of experienced nurses "eating their young". We would like to hear the perspective of experienced nurses, new grads/novice nurses and nursing students on this topic. Why do you think this behavior persists (ie., what are the dynamics or other factors that contribute to this behavior). What are your suggestions for breaking this attitudinal/behavioral cycle and for bridging the gap/improving relations between experienced and novice nurses? What do you think are the ethical ramifications (if any) of experienced nurses deliberately withholding information/support from novice nurses? It seems to us that supporting new nurses would be beneficial not only to the novice nurse, but also to the experienced nurses and to the unit as a whole. It seems that the team and unit would function more efficiently and the quality of patient care/patient safety would be better as a result. We acknowledge that there are many caring/supporting nurses working in the field and that "eating of the young" is a practice that is not practiced by the majority of nurses. However, we also acknowledge that it does persist; therefore, the purpose of this project is to better understand the reasons for and the repercussions of this behavior.
We appreciate your viewpoints.
Thank you,
RNsToBe

hag · May 8, 2000

Originally posted by RNsToBe:
Hello:
We are a group of RN students in a BSN program in Northern California, and we are exploring the ethical implications of experienced nurses "eating their young". We would like to hear the perspective of experienced nurses, new grads/novice nurses and nursing students on this topic. Why do you think this behavior persists (ie., what are the dynamics or other factors that contribute to this behavior). What are your suggestions for breaking this attitudinal/behavioral cycle and for bridging the gap/improving relations between experienced and novice nurses? What do you think are the ethical ramifications (if any) of experienced nurses deliberately withholding information/support from novice nurses? It seems to us that supporting new nurses would be beneficial not only to the novice nurse, but also to the experienced nurses and to the unit as a whole. It seems that the team and unit would function more efficiently and the quality of patient care/patient safety would be better as a result. We acknowledge that there are many caring/supporting nurses working in the field and that "eating of the young" is a practice that is not practiced by the majority of nurses. However, we also acknowledge that it does persist; therefore, the purpose of this project is to better understand the reasons for and the repercussions of this behavior.
We appreciate your viewpoints.
Thank you,
RNsToBe

Hi,

I am an RN working in Critical Care and I have been an RN for 10 years. Through training as a nurse overseas and working here in the US for several years I have seen 'eating our young' occur in a whole range of situations and institutions.

I find the nurses who are guilty of this are normally insecure with their own knowledge and practice and therefore feel threatened by questions. An RN who is confident in her knowledge and clinical practice tends to be more willing to answer questions. I also feel that it is the responsibility of the more experienced nurse to admit when she does not know something and try and find that information out or consult with a nurse more experienced than herself. None of us knows everything and everyone is more knowledgable in certain areas than others!

However I have also seen new grads and experienced floor nurses new to Critical Care enter the units with an attitude than makes people not want to help them. I have met great floor nuses and some new grads who have the made the difficult transition to Critical Care well, and had their enthusiasm dampened by cynical older nurses who should have probably left a few years earlier! Sound familiar??

My conclusion is that we should all try and remember that we all new nuses at one time and my advice would be to victims of this syndrome to ignore the cynical nurses, ignore the backbiting, observe the practice of the nurses around you and figure out who you should be listening to and learning from. Take the advice of several diferent nurses and make your own decision, as long as it is not harming the patient. One plea though to the new grads that come in to ICU, please realise we do not know everything and ask questions as many times as you need to. My biggest problem is with new grads who do ask questions and put the patient at risk.

Good luck!

NurseMom · May 17, 2000

DeathRowRN said it all...

Treat all members of your team with kindness and respect.

Never ask anyone to do something you wouldn't do yourself....it's the "delegators" who are disliked the most.

Always remember that we ALL were the newbies at one time.

Never be afraid to ask a question.

Always be available to answer a question.

If you have a problem with someone, go to THEM and talk it out...never go to management first just to look good in someone's eyes.

Treat others as you want to be treated yourself.

------------------

Laurie :)

so many patients...

so little time.....

BRENDA s.e.n · May 19, 2000

I am an student enrolled nurse training with the Illawarra School of Nursing in Australia and would like to offer you my comments and my experiences regarding the topic of hot debate. I too have experienced to some degree some of the things you have disscussed and I would like to say in that it is only a small minority that actually continue to practice the art of eating their young. I go to work with the attitude that I will get thru the day to the best of my ability, do the best for my patients and try to do the right thing by my co-workers. I have discovered that nursing is what YOU make it and if at the end of the day I have worked as best I can, my patients are well looked after and my duties are carried out as required, then that is all I have to do. If the rest want to carry on and make life hard for others, let them, just go about your job in good spirits, professionally carrying out your duties and leave the rest to their own devices. Lets face it, there is nothing in the course that says we all have to be the very best of friends and as long as we are professional in our approach, that is all we need to be. We would be fools to think that everyone we work with has to like us or we them, you will find that in all walks of life. This is not to say that I have not experienced "horizontal violence", which is what this type of behaviour is referred to in Oz, but I just try to avoid it and not be brought into the politics of the ward. Overall, I have not had many times where I have not enjoyed my shift, I always take something positive away from my work and try to rectify and learn from mistakes. I ask many questions of my workmates and try to listen and learn and always seem to seek out the nurse who is willing to share her knowlegde, they do exist and are wonderful to work with. Nursing has always been my passion and I do it because I love my job, I love the teamwork and the friendships that I have made. If we only reflected on the negatives of this particular profession I doubt there would be many of us and I for one can't think of anything else I would rather be doing. Stay positive, cheers from Oz.

NotQuiteFlorence · May 19, 2000

Originally posted by Nancy1:
Originally posted by RNsToBe:
Hello:
We are a group of RN students in a BSN program in Northern California, and we are exploring the ethical implications of experienced nurses "eating their young". We would like to hear the perspective of experienced nurses, new grads/novice nurses and nursing students on this topic. Why do you think this behavior persists (ie., what are the dynamics or other factors that contribute to this behavior). What are your suggestions for breaking this attitudinal/behavioral cycle and for bridging the gap/improving relations between experienced and novice nurses? What do you think are the ethical ramifications (if any) of experienced nurses deliberately withholding information/support from novice nurses? It seems to us that supporting new nurses would be beneficial not only to the novice nurse, but also to the experienced nurses and to the unit as a whole. It seems that the team and unit would function more efficiently and the quality of patient care/patient safety would be better as a result. We acknowledge that there are many caring/supporting nurses working in the field and that "eating of the young" is a practice that is not practiced by the majority of nurses. However, we also acknowledge that it does persist; therefore, the purpose of this project is to better understand the reasons for and the repercussions of this behavior.
We appreciate your viewpoints.
Thank you,
RNsToBe

Dear RNsToBe,
I am sorry for all those nurses that you will meet who are that way, but please seek out someone who will truly help you. I graduated in Dec. 1993 so I have not been a nurse very long. I hear what you are saying. I invite you to join your professional organizations so you can find someone to act as a mentor. Seek out the organizations in your area. I am president of 2 groups here in Milwaukee. I will warn you that membership in an organization may not always be the answer, but it is an attempt. Ask your unit manager whodoes he/she think might be able to direct you. Some nurses are better at orienting or precepting than others. Talk to your instructors, see if they have any suggestions for you. If electronic support would help please e-mail me and I would be glad to go further with this. NA

Being a Registered nurse for over 20 years now, I beleive I have witnesses various degrees of "eating ones young."
In my opinion the answer is easily determined, when you take in to account the gender domination and behaviors of our field.
Nursing generally remains a female dominated carrer. Females of all species tend compete with a catty attitude. Unfortunatly, much like our female "Nurturing" behaviors that make us excellent caregivers, the same female behaviors make us compete with eachother at times in a life or death match.
Much like two females would compete in general society, competition often continues even into the professional setting. My advice. is to MAKE THE CHANGE HAPPEN WITH YOU.... someday you will be the experienced nurse, you will have the opportunity to help or hinder a coworker.. Thank goodness I learned my lesson within my first of year nursing. Today I make it a point, to let every new nurse I am exposed to, know that I will happily "BE there for them if they need me" afterall isnt that why we became nurses.... to help others???