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No. 90
from stevierae
Old Oct 19, 2004, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by stevierae
I just took a look at the Southern Oregon gastroenterology lab site where they do nurse administered Propofol.

I found it very interesting that the doctors were giving themselves all kinds of pats on the back for supposedly pioneering the technique in 1998, and were mentioned by name, but the 3 nurses involved were mentioned only by those words: "3 nurses."

Gee, they didn't even deserve a mention by name for their part in (allegedly) making history and attracting patients from all over the world.

Why didn't the docs just call them what they REALLY are? "Cheap labor." They should also define their job description this way: "Expected to carry out the role of an anesthesia provider;
(whether CRNA or anesthesiologist)
be held to the standard of care of an anesthesia provider
(CRNA or anesthesiologist)
and accept all risks and responsibilities normally taken on by an anesthesia provider
(CRNA or anesthesiologist)
BUT DO IT AT THE SAME SALARY OF ANY OTHER REGISTERED NURSE, without complaints."

Here's a blurb off the site. The doctor with his reference to "having gone to heaven and being among the angels" (WHAT---did they have to "RESCUE" him from a near death experience?!) when he woke up and felt the "loving presence" of the nurse" is enough to make you gag. The metaphor about the nurse as compared to a mother checking her baby's formula on her hand is even MORE saccharine. Who WROTE this nonsense?!!!!

"Our protocol, on the other hand, involves nurse decision-making, within the confines of the protocol, to administer a tiny, incremental dose when called for by patient adversive movement and only if the breath is robust, as determined by the nurse's constant palpation

We have had no apnea, not do we expect this ever to happen.

Were it to happen, we think the length of the apnea would be in keeping with our colleagues at the Cleveland Clinic.

Since the nurse is palpating each breath and otherwise watching the patient like a hawk, and since propofol is white and opaque, one could envision a certain metaphor of a mother checking a baby's formula on her hand or wrist to make sure it is the proper temperature.

The nurse certainly exudes a loving presence to calm the patient, which is part of our protocol.

One local physician opened his eyes after his screening colonoscopy recently and told the nurse that he thought he had gone to heaven and was among the angels."

One more thing about this endo lab in Southern Oregon--it is NOT JCAHO accredited. I think that says something.

I live in Oregon. I am not going to "rest easy" until the practice of nurse administered Propofol at this facility ceases. I have written the Oregon Board of Nursing and key politicians. We'll see what happens.
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No. 91
from rn29306
Old Oct 21, 2004, 10:41 PM

Default Propofol (general anesthetic) and untrained providers...
Anybody care to add anything to this recently deceased horse or has it been whipped sufficiently enough after losing its airway during a routine procedure by the untrained administration of a general anesthetic and lack of intubation experiences provided by weekend courses in ACLS by both GI MD and nursing staff?
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No. 92
from stevierae
Old Oct 22, 2004, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by rn29306
Anybody care to add anything to this recently deceased horse or has it been whipped sufficiently enough after losing its airway during a routine procedure by the untrained administration of a general anesthetic and lack of intubation experiences provided by weekend courses in ACLS by both GI MD and nursing staff?
I'll add one. I just heard this yesterday from an anesthesiologist and a plastic surgeon collegue, both of whom do expert work. They were talking about the thoughts of one Dr. Friedberg, a cosmetic surgeon who does office based surgery using a Propofol-Ketamine technique. They both strongly agreed with a statement made by Dr. Friedberg, which is this:

"Anesthesiologists are using it (Ketamine) with Propofol. They (anesthesiologists) are needed to count the drops of propofol as "one drop difference can be the difference between consciousness and apnea."

Of course, you can substitute "CRNA" for anesthesiologist." The point is, they were agreeing with Dr. Friedberg that Propofol is a dangerous drug in the hands of ANYBODY BUT AN ANETHESIA PROVIDER.

Best reference for this is on the website: www.drfriedberg.com

Of course, I don't guess this will deter the RN (tish) who thinks that she and the LVNs who work with her can do anything they want to do. She'll likely formulate some rationale as to why this caveat does not apply to her.
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No. 93
Old Jan 04, 2005, 02:16 PM

WOW, Is this thread dead??? Was there a mass suicide somewhere??? Or, can we all just get along...
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No. 94
from rn29306
Old Jan 04, 2005, 02:51 PM

Default GI OD of diprivan
bad outcome in GI suite is probable reason for lack of posting, you know, OD of propofol by non-anesthesia providers..... lost the airway and the ACLS class that both the RN and GI MD took was over a year ago........."the dummy wasn't this hard to intubate was it, nor did the BP drop like this....

hypoxic brain damage is a downer on your day, patients don't really like it either..
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No. 95
Old Jan 05, 2005, 10:22 AM

I have never known of a group of people to be as arrogant and closed minded as ALL of you on both sides of this argument. There are pros and cons to everything (including life). It is people like you that can't see the forest for the trees that allow mistakes to happen. RNs pushing propofol in a GI Lab, absurd. CRNAs thinking they hung the moon, idiotic. People theatening people with lawsuits over a posting in a chat room, go do patient care. MDs that are GOD, get used to it. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. I would be ashamed to work with most everyone who has chimed in on this. You need to sit down and take a moment to reflect on where you have been, where you want to go and maybe healthcare is not your cup of tea.
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No. 96
from rn29306
Old Jan 05, 2005, 04:44 PM

thank you for your insight
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No. 97
Old Jan 06, 2005, 06:53 AM
Updated Jan 06, 2005 at 06:57 AM by originalred

I am still not clear on the downplaying of ACLS and PALS. True, it is 1 weekend every 2 years for most. Nursing school was 2-4 years...15 years ago, CRNA training is another couple of years on top of the critical care exp...10 years ago. Med school is...years...many years ago. All who want to exceed in their field must continue to gain knowledge and experience from what they learned from the weekend class last year or the 2 semesters they spent in A&P 12 years ago.

It is not the amt of time "in class". It is what you do with it "after you get out" that counts.

That is why you have good Drs and bad Drs, Good CRNAs and bad, Good RNs...
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No. 98
from stevierae
Old Jan 06, 2005, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by originalred
People theatening people with lawsuits over a posting in a chat room, go do patient care.
Who did this?
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No. 99
Old Jan 06, 2005, 10:31 AM

About 5 pages back....this thread was rather famous on allnurses.com and even another site that I enjoy visiting. It was rather interesting.
I will go back and look but there was something about an RN pushing propofol and someone else wanted to know who and where so they could be at the trial and testify....
The conviction on each side that they are SO RIGHT is intriguing to me. No middle ground. Gives you a glimpse into what we are up against in the Middle East. There are some people who will never change regardless of how well an argument is stated...
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