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Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives



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No. 10
from core0
Old Mar 19, 2009, 09:56 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by GIRN View Post
Thanks for your accurate, concise reply, David Carpenter. There ARE risks with colonoscopies and every GI Doc I've worked with so far, has had at least one perforation in their career. To say you would only pick the Doc without a perforation means you're picking a Doc who's inexperienced.

As far as sedation with propofol, I LOVE IT!!! We used Versed and Demerol then Versed and Fentanyl for years and had many patients that were either uncomfortable or downright painful. Now that we use CRNA's to give Propofol our patient's are not only comfortable but ecstatic that it was so easy. They wake up quickly, aren't sedated or nauseated for hours, and feel like they've had a power nap. We don't give any other drug besides the Propofol unless there are extenuating circumstances. We don't have to use Hurrican Spray to numb the throat before an EGD because the Propofol is so effective. Our patients are able to be discharged within thirty minutes and they usually go out to breakfast on their way home. We all win because of quick turnover.

Propofol is so much safer than Versed for this procedure because it's so much more effective for sedation. With Versed, there were patients that required high doses to keep them comfortable and we got to the limit of what we could give. They were asking for more pain control but we knew that as soon as we stopped the stimulation of the scope, they'd become so sedated their respirations would be at risk. And it brought our unit to a screeching halt to pull a nurse to do a 'one on one' with an overly sedated patient. Propofol is our answer and I hope it's only a matter of time before all units switch over.
The problem with Propofol is that its not moderate sedation. The package insert states that is should only be used by those trained in general anesthesia. There are states where nurse administered propofol is allowed. However, it remains controversial.

Anesthesia administered sedation for endoscopy remains confined for the most part to the northeast. The priniciple reason is cost. Medicare reimburses around $900 for an outpatient colonoscopy. This is an all inclusive cost including sedation. If anesthesia is going to be given it comes out of those costs. With the exception of the NE most commercial insurance follows the same policy. BC/BS in Mass attempted to do the same thing but backed down after patients complained. Again the reason is cost. The anesthesia portion of the colonoscopy adds approximately approximately 30% to the cost of the colonoscopy. Given the safety profiles of sedation for colonoscopy is that the best use of our health care dollar?

If colonoscopy become more therapeutic and less diagnostic with the advent of non-invasive methods such as CT colonography then it may be possible.

David Carpenter, PA-C
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No. 11
from GIRN
Old Mar 20, 2009, 04:38 AM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
I live in the Midwest and our patients insurance fees are being covered for both the Colonoscopy fees from the Doctor and the Anesthesia fees from the Anesthesia group. As far as it being a good use of our health care dollars, I truly believe it is because it's a much more tolerable procedure with Propofol and more importantly, it's much safer. I personally used Versed and Fentynal for my own colonoscopy, before we had made the switch to Propofol and the procedure was a piece of cake. But I felt miserable afterwards...nauseated and sedated for hours. I would rather pay a higher copay and know that I was getting Propofol....a safer alternative and a more tolerable one.
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No. 12
from darne20
Old Mar 20, 2009, 07:08 AM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
It's great to get so much information and personal opinions from people who deal with this issue on a daily basis. So far, a few things are clear to me:

1. Colonoscopy can be done with or without sedation and that's a personal choice that the patient should be offered and discussed beforehand. I can see no reason that the exam can't be done (if requested) with fentanyl only. Some places still use meperidine? (yikes!)

2. There are a significant number of people who have had very bad experiences with Versed (myself and my primary-care doc included) and this can be avoided with proper informed consent (ie: Versed is given to relax and make you forget, not it's just to make you comfy) or by doing the exam without sedation, with painkiller only or with propofol. When it comes to colonoscopy sedation, one size does not seem to fit all.

3. Most patients who receive versed/fentanyl for colonoscopy are satisfied with the procedure. Patients are generally more satisfied with propofol, but it's expensive.

4. Colonoscopy is not a drive-thru procedure and it is not risk-free.

5. Patients who are cared for by nurses who consider alternatives to "what everyone gets" will have a better and safer procedure, even if it takes a little longer. Personally, I find it refreshing that people express so many different opinions and agree to disagree. These are the kinds of nurses whom I hope are present at my next exam.
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No. 13
from core0
Old Mar 20, 2009, 11:39 AM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by GIRN View Post
I live in the Midwest and our patients insurance fees are being covered for both the Colonoscopy fees from the Doctor and the Anesthesia fees from the Anesthesia group. As far as it being a good use of our health care dollars, I truly believe it is because it's a much more tolerable procedure with Propofol and more importantly, it's much safer. I personally used Versed and Fentynal for my own colonoscopy, before we had made the switch to Propofol and the procedure was a piece of cake. But I felt miserable afterwards...nauseated and sedated for hours. I would rather pay a higher copay and know that I was getting Propofol....a safer alternative and a more tolerable one.
For hospital endoscopy insurance will pay for anesthesia. For AEC where colonoscopies are done they don't pay (except the NE). There is an interesting model that they use in California. If you want propofol they give you a card to an anesthesia group. Cost is around $400 cash only (I'm assuming they take credit cards). At the assigned time they show up and push the white stuff. Basically if you want it you have to pay for it.

David Carpenter, PA-C
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No. 14
Old Mar 20, 2009, 11:49 AM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
At least Propofol doesn't cause people to have permanent memory loss, severe anxiety attacks and Post Trumatic Stress Disorder like Versed does!!! Check out VersedBusters blogspot and www.askapatient.com if you want to hear the horrible things people have experienced while being lied to and overdosed with this evil poison!!!!
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No. 15
from truern
Old Mar 20, 2009, 01:23 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by serialmom12 View Post
At least Propofol doesn't cause people to have permanent memory loss, severe anxiety attacks and Post Trumatic Stress Disorder like Versed does!!! Check out VersedBusters blogspot and www.askapatient.com if you want to hear the horrible things people have experienced while being lied to and overdosed with this evil poison!!!!
serialmom, I can appreciate that you had a bad experience with versed, but I have to wonder what you hope to accomplish by coming to a site for nurses and mounting your campaign against it??
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No. 16
from truern
Old Mar 20, 2009, 01:25 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by core0 View Post
For hospital endoscopy insurance will pay for anesthesia. For AEC where colonoscopies are done they don't pay (except the NE). There is an interesting model that they use in California. If you want propofol they give you a card to an anesthesia group. Cost is around $400 cash only (I'm assuming they take credit cards). At the assigned time they show up and push the white stuff. Basically if you want it you have to pay for it.

David Carpenter, PA-C
David, hubby and I bought opted for propofol for our colonoscopies at $125 a pop. Best money we ever spent...unless you count those shoes I bought at the beach
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No. 17
Old Mar 20, 2009, 01:35 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by serialmom12 View Post
At least Propofol doesn't cause people to have permanent memory loss, severe anxiety attacks and Post Trumatic Stress Disorder like Versed does!!! Check out VersedBusters blogspot and www.askapatient.com if you want to hear the horrible things people have experienced while being lied to and overdosed with this evil poison!!!!
I'm starting to think this is parody.

Poe's Law, anybody?

---

Never the less, midazolam does not cause permanent memory loss, severe anxiety attacks, or post traumatic stress. This is not documented anywhere outside of tinfoil websites.

Midazolam is actually one of many novel treatments for post traumatic stress, and we're all quite aware of how any of the benzodiazepines relieve anxiety.

If anything causes anxiety and post traumatic stress, it's likely the actual procedure (and the prep, which is equally as bad, in my opinion).
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No. 18
Old Mar 20, 2009, 01:41 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Originally Posted by core0 View Post
For hospital endoscopy insurance will pay for anesthesia. For AEC where colonoscopies are done they don't pay (except the NE). There is an interesting model that they use in California. If you want propofol they give you a card to an anesthesia group. Cost is around $400 cash only (I'm assuming they take credit cards). At the assigned time they show up and push the white stuff. Basically if you want it you have to pay for it.

David Carpenter, PA-C
Thanks for clarifying. I was going to point out that virtually all inpatient and outpatient scopes done at local hospitals in this area (suburban Houston) used MAC.
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No. 19
from *ac*
Old Mar 20, 2009, 02:00 PM

Default Re: Colonoscopy Drugs and alternatives
Personally, I wouldn't do it without versed. I mean it.
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