[pagandeva2000]

Originally Posted by agldragon

Yeah, I did not see anyone here that said that LPNs are superior or better than MAs. The concensus was that MAs do not hold a license.

And, THAT is the reality... the bottom line. This is everywhere, actually. I have seen some CNAs, LPNs, and even housekeepers have it more on the ball than some of the more careless, unscrupleous RNs, but the bottom line is that even we, as LPNs do not hold the RN license, therefore, for us to get recognition (those of us that choose not to move up), we have to use unique talents and for some a bit of humility and knowledge to receive that recognition. This is not a bash on RNs, either, by the way-just that we may be nurses as well, however, we don't hold THEIR license. What this has shown me over the years is that one cannot discount a person because you never know who will be there to remind you of something that needs to be done, or to watch your back. Sometimes, it is the people who are being 'ignored or overlooked' when the bigwigs are making rounds that will pull your coat tail. Help you out, see something you need to know about. That is where the teamwork and respect come in.

I also believe that you made a valid point-what does happen to the physician who delegated a part of his responsibility to someone and THEY make a mistake...a GRAVE one??? I often wondered with the situation of medical assistants. If they do not have a regulated licensing or certification that is nationwide, then, this can mean that this person can become employed elsewhere and continue to do the same. It does not seem that they can become certified by recipocacy (did I spell that right?), so, who is really liable? I remember a situation once where a woman reported that she had a positive PPD a few years ago, and our doctor decided to order a CXR and redid the PPD. When I read it, it was negative, no induration, but she had a red mark that was 20mm. I asked her when she went to her provider in the private office, who read it. She said "His nurse" and immediately, I suspected that it was probably an MA that was not trained by a vocational school who would have told her that redness does not equate to a positive PPD. I also know that there are many CMAs are very savvy and would have made the proper measurement, but there are also those that may not. Her primary physician probably did not assess it himself, and took her word.

Can the same thing happen if it was a nurse (may it be LPN or RN) that didn't care? Sure, it can. But, that licensed person would have been more liable for the error than the MA would, and that doctor would have been liable if a more dangerous situation occurred, because he was the licensed person and he should have assessed it, and her skills, himself. That is all we are saying...not that we are better or superior.

[SMK1]

Originally Posted by Kidaroo102

It is interesting you should say that because if you look at the Dept. of Labor Occupational Statistics the training components are the same. Also HPSO- Health Professionals Service Organization that has been in business for over 25 years offers malpractice insurance to Certified Medical Assistants. The certification is treated just like the liscensure. It's a national third party test given for competency. CMA programs have clinical rotations just like LPN students do. If an Honest Objective look is taken at the two professions the only difference is the regulatory board. The state nursing board covers LPN's and the state medical board covers MA's.

I don't know what the big pinch is in the nursing community about CMA's. In Alaska there is ONE nursing program for RN's one 2 yr and one 4 yr at the university. With the lack of nursing instructors they allow 30 students each program twice a year. This has created a greater need for medical professionals. MA's are filling the gap for the RN shortfall.

I am not saying that one is better than the other I am simply stating that CMA's with a physician that trains them can do MORE than and LPN in some states, specifically Alaska. I have administered narcotics IV, per a doctors order and according to the state nursing board here a LPN can't do that. And we can administer medications as well as dispense them under the physicians order in Alaska. It does vary from state to state, but here we are allowed to by law.

Ok I'll bite. A big part of the issue with the MA/CMA role is that it is not uniform through all states. You say that in Alaska there is no difference in the training/education of an lpn vs a medical assistant. I'm not going to argue with you even though I have SERIOUS doubts about the validity of that statement. However, even if it is true up there, it is not true in most if not all other states. An LPN is nationally licensed and the educational preparation for practical nurses is standardized to include minimum clinical hours and standards of education in appropriate facilities with accredited schools of nursing that allow the student eligibility to sit for a national licensing exam. This ensures at least minimum safe practice standards are ingrained into any person earning that license. This is not true for MA/CMA schools. Out where I am at, the level of the classes are different, the length of time of the education is different and you are not even required to get certified. Not to mention the fact that there are medical offices out there that will hire you as a medical assistant without any sort of formal training. I would wager to say that you are being taken advantage of royally if you are performing nursing related duties without the proper education and training and thus are probably making far less than you should. There is a reason that the boards of nursing are strict regarding what the nurse state practice act should include. Patient safety needs to come first. Not to sound harsh, but I doubt anyone here is impressed that an MA is giving IV narcotics and other medications. Giving the drug and just skating by without a poor outcome is never a good idea. Sure you may never run into trouble. That isn't the point. I'll bet you 60-70% of what walks into the local med office or ER could be "diagnosed" by a seasoned nurse too. Doesn't make it a good idea.

[kythe]

Originally Posted by SMK1

An LPN is nationally licensed and the educational preparation for practical nurses is standardized to include minimum clinical hours and standards of education in appropriate facilities with accredited schools of nursing that allow the student eligibility to sit for a national licensing exam. This ensures at least minimum safe practice standards are ingrained into any person earning that license. This is not true for MA/CMA schools. Out where I am at, the level of the classes are different, the length of time of the education is different and you are not even required to get certified. Not to mention the fact that there are medical offices out there that will hire you as a medical assistant without any sort of formal training.

Yes, it is like that where I am too. Certification for MA was optional at the time I worked as one. I did not choose to be certified since I had no reason to be. It made me no more or less employable than any other MA, and I never had a problem finding a job with only a diploma from a vocational school.

Schools in my area vary greatly in quality, though that is something I didn't really notice until I was working in the field and meeting other MA's. For instance, one school was a 7 month-long program with classes 4 days a week. Another school was a 9-month program with classes 5 days a week. There really are no standards for what you learn since there is no national or even state-wide regulations for MA. Education levels vary even by what school the MA attended. I'm all for standardization of MA schools and requirements, since it would bring greater respect and clear-cut responsibilities for MA's, as well as hold schools accountable to meet certain criteria in length and type of education they provide. I don't believe this has happened, though.

LPN schools are all quite comparable. All LPN schools in my area are 1 school year long (after prerequisites), all seem to have very comparable NCLEX pass rates, and of course the state licensing process itself ensures a certain reliability and standardization of the field. If someone says they are an LPN, one can look up the state scope of practice and determine exactly what this person is qualified to do and what they cannot do. If someone says they are an MA, it could mean whatever they want it to mean.

[pagandeva2000]

I took a six week medical assisting course for two months, one day a week for $299. I got plenty of jobs, because I had nursing assistant and phlebotomy certification. I had jobs at many agencies and got paid a decent sum of money, but that was more for my other certifications that gave me experience. Others paid well over $15,000 for 6-9 months and did not find suitable employment.

[lisalake]

Originally Posted by Kidaroo102

MA's are filling the gap for the RN shortfall.

I am not saying that one is better than the other I am simply stating that CMA's with a physician that trains them can do MORE than and LPN in some states, specifically Alaska. I have administered narcotics IV, per a doctors order and according to the state nursing board here a LPN can't do that. And we can administer medications as well as dispense them under the physicians order in Alaska. It does vary from state to state, but here we are allowed to by law.

Yes, seems like this is the plan to replace LICENSED Nurses with UNlicensed personnel; they are much cheaper labor, allowed in many states to perform more tasks than LPN's, have less education, and are conveniently not governed by the nursing boards. It's a much cheaper way to care for sick Americans, who are paying through the nose for health care, and better helps the hospitals meet their bottom line! Too bad for all the experienced LPN's who are losing their jobs due to the limitations placed on them by the nursing profession.

[Fiona59]

Originally Posted by Kidaroo102

MA training is not what it used to be. How long did you spend on pharmacology. 10 weeks of 8-5 M-f of dosage calculation, drug composition and chemistry, drug interaction, drug classification. I have been in the medical profession for the last 7 years, 5 as a military medic doing more than an RN civilian would ever do, and now as an MA for the last three. If you don't want a Nationally Certified Medical Assistant pushing your iv meds after they have been properly trained then don't come to Alaska.

Perhaps your medics background is also a reason that you feel comfortable and your employer feels comfortable in using you to the extent you profess.

Most medics I know go on as EMTs when they retire, not an office job.

[Lexxie]

Please do not take this in the wrong context. I am just stating what has been my very limited experience thus far.. I was hired at the beginning of this month to work in a brand new urgent care setting. My background is in LTC for the 3 years that I've been an LPN. The MA that is training me has an attitude, even after explaining that LTC facilities don't generally do doctor office type things. "I can't believe that you don't know how to do EKG's, vision tests, rapid strep tests, give immunizations, how to work the computer system etc. etc.!". She is also miffed that I make more money than her and I don't have the "skills" that she does. Maybe it's just this girl as a whole has an attitude problem. I dunno. My point is that it shouldn't have to come down to titles or an "I'm better than you because I have more education than you" kinda thing. We're there for the patients, aren't we? Just my

[kat7ap]

Just out of curiosity I went to several of Alaska's hospital employment websites and searched for jobs. I did not see any jobs listed for LPNs that stated a CMA can substitute for. They all say about the same thing, "must have a LICENSE to practice nursing". While there was not a huge amount of LPN jobs listed, but there were even less CMA jobs listed.

I have no doubt that the poster has had extensive training and experience from the military as a medic, but I think the consensus on this board is that in every other place in the US, CMA training is MUCH different than LPN training and that in most cases a CMA cannot substitute for LPN. Anyone else from Alaska have any perspective on this? I also have serious doubts that Alaska hospitals are letting this practice happen.

[pagandeva2000]

People's skills, talents and knowledge are at it's best in the area that they practice the MOST, not just title and education alone. I have faced the same thing with RNs that are not familiar with our system of things in the clinic, and I, as an LPN have trained/oriented them. I do not treat them like idiots, I treat them like the nurses that they are. Some people have nothing better to do but to rub salt in a wound because of their personal insecurities. It sounds to me that this CMA was insulted that she is training a nurse, who is getting paid more than she is but she is not paying attention to the reality of the situation...you are more accountable than she would be.

[NatashaFromOregon]

This is really something that may depend on the state. Here in Oregon, there are not very many LPN programs, and subsequently, not very many opennings for LPNs. Many times CMAs are offered many positions that LPNs would have had in the past. CMAs here work in clinics, offices, hospitals, and resident homes. They administer drugs (including IV narcotics ordered by a physician), draw blood, give injections, take vitals, and perform general patient care. They also perform administrative duties around the office. In nearly all institution in Oregon, employers require medical assistants to be certified (given the credential CMA by the AAMA), and they ARE insured by the physician they work under. Their wages are also quite competitive: LPNs make about $20-$24/hour and CMAs make about $17-$20/hour.

I'm not saying one career is better that the other, but I've noticed some negative feelings here about CMAs. LPNs and CMAs have different roles, but many of their tasks and abilities (at least here in OR) overlap. To the original poster, if a job description is specifying an LPN, then you are probably wasting your time, but you could always contact the employer and ask whether your skills would be appropriate. It couldn't hurt.