[TazziRN]

Thank you, Miranda!!!! You said it way better than I could!

[RN-Cardiac]

As usual Miranda,..very well stated

I think that we all do need to remember that online one can "be" anything or anyone they choose to be. We have all seen the posts by someone who states they are an "experienced nurse" and thought "there is no way that person is a nurse". I remember someone talking about med errors, who said that she once gave 100 milligrams of Fentanyl to a pt rather than the intented 100 micrograms,.because she couldn't read the doctors handwriting,...you will never convince me that really happened!! I think that is the bases for some of the frustration many feel when someone stands so strongly and rigidly to a point that often doesn't make any rational sense to those of us who have been in this profession for many years. I think that this is a great site to share ideas, learn from each other, see things from a different perspective and to vent. We should all be open minded and often agree to disagree,..I have to admit that by repeatedly stating that those who disagreed with her were lazy, and unethical, she set herself up for what she got. Just my $ .02,...I love this site and won't let differences in oppinion keep me from logging on!!!!

[CRNI-ICU20]

Thank you to those who pointed out the very difference between expressing an opinion and those who used names, however they are meant, demeaning comments that included a person's brain formation, and demeaning one's background, ie education.
I wasn't yelling, Tazzi....I was using caps to emphasize, or outline what I am referring to to draw your attention to it...I am sorry if you took that to mean that I was yelling....
As for the moderator defending a bunch of people who used name calling: Wrong! the moderator and others stated that since she was supposedly the one who "drew first blood" so to speak, that somehow she deserved the personal attack. May I remind you that since her audience was almost all seasoned nurses, that more is required of them in the areas of restraint and listening skills? We are not wolves after all, whereby the alpha gets to bite down on the underling while the others watch.....
This is the thinking that has GOT to change. In your response, Miranda,
you stated "here's what the #8 poster said, yadda yadda yadda...was harsh and cruel??"
Yes...she said that in her opinion, to pacify and blow off a patient's needs with therapeutic lying was in her opinion, lazy and taking the easy way out. NOW, she didn't call ANYONE there names, did not demean their educational background, demand that they cough up their experience in geriatrics, psychiatry, or any other "tree", she stated her opinion.....and the response, by the seasoned nurses was to refer to her as a TROLL, someone who's patients would be fearful of her, and one who stated she was a brain anomaly....
Now,who is being harsh and cruel here???
It should not matter if she says the sky is ORANGE....if this is her opinion, what right do the other posters have in calling her a troll, a brain anomaly, or lacking in education or experience?
On this site, people are frequently stating that Doctors are rude, and that they feel "put down" by them. I have read where nurses who have years of education, are suddenly reduced to feeling like a pile of mush because another has slapped them verbally across the face.....
This thread, albeit a year old, was no different.
Now, I see some who would excuse the bad behaviour of these "seasoned" nurses as just responding to a person's thread?
Since when is it okay to call a person a troll, (whatever your dictionary definition), refer to them as a brain anomaly? or make statements that imply her patients must be fearful?
Are you actually saying that this poster deserved to be treated this way?
If you look at some of the posters here, they re-inforce the opinion that 1) they want to be able to express what they have to say, without fear of retribution.

2) they also expressed that much of what they would like to say at work, they can say here, because that spirit of retribution is so prominent in the work place....(exactly my point!)
3)They also made comments that opinion should not include name calling, or demeaning put downs....

I am not sure you, Miranda, and Tazzi, are understanding the difference between expressing an opinion, and attacking a person, because you both seem to be defending an action by some that was clearly a personal attack.....there was no opinion of an idea attached to that at all; and, in fact, if I am wrong here, then the thread would not have needed "re-direction" multiple times, if the free-flow of ideas was appropriate and professional, eh?
To feed on a new nurse this way is just exactly why many do not remain in the profession, or never go there in the first place.
The carnivore thinking must stop! People who do this kind of thing should be confronted. They hide behind hypocritical actions and words, backstabbing as they go, and smile that they have anonymity.....and most then waltz off to their churches and bedsides singing the Lord's praises. It's the worst kind of lie, to one's self; believing you are something more special, more educated, more experienced, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent, than the next person.
What I hear for excuses is:
"well, she said inflammatory words FIRST"!! this isn't a kindergarten sandbox, people....this is supposed to be a website that embodies a group of so-called professionals! do you not understand how lame this looks???
"it was an old thread".....uh huh....and it IS old....but the same stuff keeps happnening over and over in nursing, where one person expresses an opinion and the pride comes in to devour them for having it.....

If we are going to call ourselves "seasoned" nurses, then we jolly well better grow up and act like it. Name calling is for bullies. Demeaning comments about one's education or in-experience is also for bullies.
Please, moderators, call a spade a spade.....stop soft soaping the issue here and glossing it over.
Yes, she probably could have approached this a little less aggressively; but WE ARE THE SEASONED ONES....aren't we supposed to have the wisdom to impart respect, invoke free-expression of opinion, and encourage young nurses?
What happened on that thread in particular was nothing more than pack mentality.....it makes me want to be a vegetarian! ugh.
There are even some seasoned nurses who have been afraid to speak their minds because some would bite them or slap them verbally. What a shame that we have allowed a few to bully the rest of us into believing that ONLY THEY can have an opinion.
To deny that this example before you isn't bullying is about the most blinded eye I have ever encountered. What will it take before any one of you takes a personal accountability enough to say NO to this kind of behaviour? Until it happens to you, or someone you care about, it seems to not be even believed. It is, instead, excused. crni

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by CRNI-ICU20

"it was an old thread".....uh huh....and it IS old....but the same stuff keeps happnening over and over in nursing, where one person expresses an opinion and the pride comes in to devour them for having it.....

I think your exaggerating, which is why you have to bring up such an old thread. Of course, if you look hard enough you'll find a new one for sure.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does.

But what you call "devouring", "harsh" and "cruel" the mods might not see it that way and let it go. Sometimes we just have to allow people to express themselves, as you personally are doing in this ultra-critical angry post. If we deleted every brazen, short, irritable post, we'd be here all day and there would be far fewer posts.

You can't please 100% of the membership 100% of the time.

There was a thread recently where I asked the posters to not jump on the bandwagon and keep telling her over and over she was wrong. People agreed and stopped. Did they "devour" the op of that thread. We didn't think so, no TOS violations occurred, most were respectful. 99.999% of people who disagree with a poster don't devour them, they state their case maturely.

In the ADN vs. BSN debate, many people were getting on someone who said diploma nurses shouldn't call themselves a "nurse". Did they "devour" her? Not really, but I tried real hard to allow this person to be respected for their unpopular stance and challenge the membership to be respectful.

If you find current posts of people devouring someone, please report. Thanks.

I think that it is good to be reminded to post with thoughtful consideration for the one we are posting to, even if we completely disagree and find their actions/post/question/position offensive to us.

[CRNI-ICU20]

You think calling someone a troll is exaggerating?
Yes, this is an OLD thread, but the mentality of some of those same seasoned nurses still remains....because at the point of injury to the new nurse, no one was really held accountable, Tweety....
That's what I am trying to say here....
It isn't an exaggeration...
To that person who was attacked, it might as well have happened yesterday.....the wounds still linger long after the point of injury, because NO ONE apologized.....and they should have....
I am not "having to bring up such an old thread"....as you say, in order to prove my point....because the mal-adaptive thinking is still there, as evidenced by many of the responses here....
Many expressed that they are not comfortable expressing themselves openly at work because they fear retribution....well DUH!
And many others expressed that they have been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour....
And further, it is so common for one person to point out that the behaviour is wrong, call it what it truly is, and then have another come along and dismiss it as "just a misunderstanding" or "the first poster was harsh and cruel first!!"
While you can site instances since that time, in your experience, where people have tempered themselves and refrained from slinging nasty comments and words around, I have encountered some threads where people have openly done the opposite, and have backstabbed within the thread as if the one being stabbed was not able to read or see their words....(like talking behind their back)....it was bizzare! to say the least....and very telling....
I realize that some believe passionately about their work, and that they post here as if their very lives depended on it, but give me a break here....calling someone a troll is just plain wrong, and it isn't an exaggeration....whether it happened a year ago, or whether it happened yesterday....it's wrong....crni

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by CRNI-ICU20

You think calling someone a troll is exaggerating?
Yes, this is an OLD thread, but the mentality of some of those same seasoned nurses still remains....because at the point of injury to the new nurse, no one was really held accountable, Tweety....
That's what I am trying to say here....
It isn't an exaggeration...
To that person who was attacked, it might as well have happened yesterday.....the wounds still linger long after the point of injury, because NO ONE apologized.....and they should have....
I am not "having to bring up such an old thread"....as you say, in order to prove my point....because the mal-adaptive thinking is still there, as evidenced by many of the responses here....
Many expressed that they are not comfortable expressing themselves openly at work because they fear retribution....well DUH!
And many others expressed that they have been on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour....
And further, it is so common for one person to point out that the behaviour is wrong, call it what it truly is, and then have another come along and dismiss it as "just a misunderstanding" or "the first poster was harsh and cruel first!!"
While you can site instances since that time, in your experience, where people have tempered themselves and refrained from slinging nasty comments and words around, I have encountered some threads where people have openly done the opposite, and have backstabbed within the thread as if the one being stabbed was not able to read or see their words....(like talking behind their back)....it was bizzare! to say the least....and very telling....
I realize that some believe passionately about their work, and that they post here as if their very lives depended on it, but give me a break here....calling someone a troll is just plain wrong, and it isn't an exaggeration....whether it happened a year ago, or whether it happened yesterday....it's wrong....crni

No, I didn't mean to condone such behavior. I find much to agree with in your post.

I just don't think it's happening over and over in our forums. Perhaps we're reading different threads (there are several forums I do not go to, LTC being one of them), or looking at threads with a different eye (which is likely the case). Maybe I have rose colored glasses and am not calling a spade a spade. I'm willing to look at that.

But for now, I'd still like to have faith that 95% percent of the membership here are good people and don't go around devouring and bullying one another.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it happens for sure.

As was mentioned, it does happen that someone calls another a troll, or worse and we miss it.

I'm just not sure we're going to moderate to your satisfaction and I'm sure what else to say about that. But I'm trying to open my mind. Again, I can say we'll try to get better and ask the membership to report TOS violations and bullying ASAP.

[Spidey's mom]

Originally Posted by kanzi monkey

I don't know if you are taking the word "troll" to mean some large, ugly anthropomorphic creature with a brain the size of a pea and a club the size of Florida--or the internet version of troll as defined by the master of uncertain definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

this seems not quite as cruel, but more of a heads up--suggesting the poster was more of a trickster trying to get the masses riled up.

This post made me smile . . . . gotta have a sense of humor.


steph

[cardiacRN2006]

Steph, it made me laugh too!!



That poster didn't have a lot of posts when that thread was ongoing. Also, many of her other posts were rude, and some of them were in locked threads.

I might have thought her a troll as well just based on those things...

[ktwlpn]

Originally Posted by CRNI-ICU20

In the last couple of days/weeks, I have been noticing some things on this website that troubles me....
On more than just a few occasions, I have read whole threads, where there is a "discussion", or difference of opinion being expressed...
I notice in some of those threads that more times than not, when one person doesn't agree with the "crowd", the "crowd" then turns on the "outsider" or "non-agreeing one", and then comes in with personal attacks.....
Comments that state things like: "I bet her patients are fearful"....or "brain anonmalies" or implying that only the "seasoned ones" have ultimate knowledge. There doesn't seem to be any free exchange of ideas from that point on. The one being attacked is hounded with questions about whether or not they have the "credentials" to back up their opinion, etc.
I wonder about this. I wonder why nurses who talk about NOT EATING THEIR YOUNG, do so OPENLY on a public forum, all in the name of "education", and thn post on another thread about how wrong it is to eat their own young!
I wonder why moderators don't put some sort of "kabosh" on people who repeatedly and personally attack people....not the IDEA, but the PERSON.....there is a distinct difference, but just like in most bullying situations, the onlookers tend to look the other way.....and I wonder why, when you have threads about lateral violence, and nurses bullying others, you allow that to happen here right under your eyeglasses, with nary a finger wag.
It's one thing to express an opinion, and then step back when someone blasts that opinion with one of their own....
It's quite another to make comments about a nurse's mental health, their brain capacity, labeling them as arrogant and then topping it off with " i don't think she has any experience.
if she does, God pity her frightened, disoriented pts. " and calling this poster a "troll??"
I don't care how passionate you are about some particular area of your work, by calling a fellow nurse a troll or brain damaged or dismissing her comments as "less than" because you don't agree with them, only diminishes YOU.
I find it even more IRONIC that the many who attacked her were standing on their soapboxes squawking loudly about HOW TO COMMUNICATE WITH DISORENTED AND DEMENTED PATIENTS....
If you have to resort to calling a fellow nurse a troll? what kind of communicator ARE YOU??
I am ashamed to have read that thread....and even more ashamed to realize that it was participated in by so-called "seasoned" nurses....
In my opinion, you should be able to conduct yourselves better....you want to be seen as professionals, and yet, here you are, calling another in your profession a troll, because she sees something differently....
What do you suppose she took from this communication exchange???
I don't think she even heard your point....she was still reeling from the frontal verbal punches you threw at her....
You can kick me off the forum for this if you want. Or, you can let this be an opportunity for some here to offer an apology for getting out of line....jmho. crni

CRNI- I have to quote you from another thread-
"She's an adult, with a big communication problem and an even bigger personality problem....maybe she can find a job where she doesn't have to deal with people and can read the paper all day....
Like maybe the dog pound, or a dispatcher's office for a Maytag repairman....or phone sex hot line in the middle of the Nevada desert...
There is a certain criteria when it comes to working with the sick and elderly.....she clearly showed her employer and co-workers that she wasn't able to meet that criteria....."
crni >>>>>>>>>It seems that you don't practice what you are preaching here on a consistent basis....My frustration with the thread in question was the inability of the person to which you are referring to open her mind.Those of us who work with the Alzheimer's population have to deal with the resultant chaos caused by people like her.They refuse to LEARN.I am learning and growing every single day-I watch and learn from everyone I come into contact with- both younger and more experienced nurses.I don't ignore someone because they may have less education them I do or less experience because they may have a valid point.I don't start picking apart someone's grammar or spelling to deflect the attention from the fact that I really don't know what I'm talking about. The vast experience of the posters on that thread is overwhelmingly against that poster's view point.She was like a 4 yr old holding her fingers in her ears and chanting " I can't hear you,I can't hear you" Calling someone a "troll" is internet speak for someone who enjoys baiting the crowd.No worse then telling a fellow nurse she should work in a dog pound ...This person clearly showed she is not capable of meeting the criteria required to work with the demented,IMHO---she should work on a phone sex line,right?

[nursemike]

Well, breakfast is going to be late, today. I'm having a hard time deciding whether this thread or the one sited on dementia is more interesting. I think the one on dementia is more useful to me in my practice, although in my work I'm usually dealing more with temporary delusional behavior s/p stroke or surgery.
Since the dreaded "Eating their young" phrase has already been introduced, may I say that as I get more experienced and less young, I begin to believe that a little chewing can, at times, be instructive? I once wrote an article for an in-house newsletter entitled "Let's get catty!" (I have, as some may have noticed, ongoing issues with the use of "catty" to describe passive/aggressive behaviours, insofar as my own feline companions are hardly ever remotely passive in their aggression.) In said article, I advocated resolving conflicts by biting ones adversary on the ear, throwing them to the floor, and licking their face afterwards to make up.
I can see the OP's (of this thread) concern, but I can also understand those who were irritated by what appeared to be condescension directed toward thoughtful and caring, experienced nurses. I also see a central problem all of us new nurses inevitably encounter, in that we have to evaluate whether our more experienced peers have simply become sloppy in their practice, or have learned to go beyond "book learning." Being an older new nurse, my inclination is to expect the best of my experienced peers, especially when what they are doing appears to work. Having, at times, been the voice of experience in another field, respect for experience comes pretty naturally to me--so what I have to keep reminding myself is that there can be no progress if we get too mired in "the way it has always been done." But a different person might need to be reminded that theory is no substitute for practice.

Anyway, I have to agree that, on the whole, this forum is a pretty civil one (that is, I politely disagree with the OP) although I concede there are moments when frustration gets the better of us (licking the OP's face, so to speak.)