[gauzeisgreat]

Hello all,
I'm currently deciding between graduate schools (entry-level masters) and one of the major deciding factors has to do with choices in specialties. I'm having trouble getting an answer to the following question, so I thought I'd ask it here:

What does having the title and training as a "Clinical Nurse Leader" actually mean?

I know this is a new specialty coming out of the universities, but what does this mean to the field? It all seems so vague. Is this title considered "advanced practice"? Does that even matter to the field and to me as nurse? Am I better off choosing a more acute care-related specialty? Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

[ukstudent]

To me it means nothing. You are meant to be a clinical leader without actual clinical knowledge!!! That's an oxymoron just there. You will be paying graduate level price. ie advance practice price for an education that will NOT be considered advance practice. You would still have to go back and spend more in order to get to an advance practice level.

[imenid37]

You cannot be a leader in the clinical setting, without clinical experience and leadership qualities. You get neither in a program like this. You get an education and an MSN degree. You are a new grad w/ an MSN. It will save you time if you want to advance your career because you already have the degree. I do not think the other staff will see you as a leader by virtue of your degree. You need to earn that kind of respect which comes with years of experience. CNL should be a degree reserved for those who have attained expertise at the bedside and want to step up their career. It is silly to make it entry level. I know that it can be hard to get a loan for a second BS degree and I am not slamming any persons, but rather a nursing education community which creates this kind of program. My alma mater Uof MD has such a program. This is just another example of how the many in the nursing education community are out of touch w/ what reality is at the bedside.

[MIA-RN]

I am actually looking into the CNL program where I am and I think it sounds like a good idea. It gives you a master's level education and there is a 420 hour 'immersion experience' at the end of the courses. You also have to have practiced as a registered nurse for three years before qualifiying for entry to the program, so its not a 'new grad' type of degree.
I think it prepares a person to become a leader on the unit both clinically and in a management sense. I definitely DO NOT want to be a nurse practitioner, and this degree would allow me the master's education without having to become an NP.
It is a rather new degree; according to where I plan to attend there are less than 100 schools offering the degree nationally.
The risk is what if degree doesn't give the outcomes it intends, of course. Meaning maybe the leadership jobs won't call for the master's level education, or maybe it won't develop into opportunities other than hospital positions as its forecasted to over the next years.
But there is risk involved with everything new.
Like I said I am considering it too, but not so sure yet. My main concern is that I want to leave bedside within the next 8 - 10 years and that degree, although the most interesting one to me at the moment, is really meant for someone who will have a longer bedside career than I intend.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the CNL degree.

[nrsjo]

I work with folks who have their CNL degree. To me, you have to be really, really careful about what YOUR facility is going to use this level of education for. What I have seen, is that you are an MSN working at the bedside, with no leadership or decision making power. You are not treated as someone who is supposed to be facilitating patient outcomes and mentoring people. Nor are you treating as a management person. So............what's the point? Maybe others are having a better experience in other parts of the country with it.

[MIA-RN]

nrsjo--you have a very valid point. For me, the univeristy teaching hospital where i work is also where I will go to school...so its a good crossover into leadership there. But you are correct that it might not be as good a fit elsewhere.

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by MIA-RN

nrsjo--you have a very valid point. For me, the univeristy teaching hospital where i work is also where I will go to school...so its a good crossover into leadership there. But you are correct that it might not be as good a fit elsewhere.

And is the hospital affiliated with the uni actually using CNLs, in the role for which they are told they're being prepared?

I've heard no interest in this role from anybody in nursing other than the schools that are offering the program. From what I've read of the role (and I freely admit I'm no expert), it sounds like they are being prepared to do what most good, experienced bedside nurses used to be able to do. I feel kinda bad for the students who are basically being used a "guinea pigs" to run this idea up a flagpole and see if anyone salutes. Maybe it'll work out great and it's the Next Big Thing -- but that's certainly not clear at this point. It's not like there was some great cry from the larger nursing community that we need Master's-prepared bedside nurses ...

Frankly (and I freely admit I'm widely known for being cynical), I believe that this got started because so many second-career people want to go into nursing, but they already have BA/BS degrees and can't get financial aid for an additional baccalaureate degree; so they want to go into MSN programs (so they're eligible for federal financial aid) but not an advanced practice program (like so many of the direct-entry programs already out there); but there's no sensible justification for Master's programs to prepare basic bedside nurses to do the same things ADN and BSN graduates do; so someone dreamed up this "CNL" idea to justify preparing bedside RNs at the Master's level.

I'm glad that there are some CNL programs that actually require you to have some RN experience, because all the ones I've heard of so far are direct-entry programs -- so, they're turning out supposed "clinical leaders" who have no clinical experience. That may sound reasonable in academia, but not to most of us out in the real world ...

[MIA-RN]

elkpark--thank you. That is great food for thought in terms of whether I will actually find a job where I work if i do get the CNL.
The description of the degree where I am looking to attend says that CNL grads are employed as patient care facilitators, case managers, and resource nurses. I don't know if those roles traditionally require Master's education, or if there is a trend towards requiring a Master's for those roles.
Sure is good to think about though...
And I agree that the requirement of several years practice as an RN are vital and Im glad the program I'm looking into requires it. I have a friend who is an NP and never worked bedside as an RN... She is amazing and absolutely wonderful at what she does...but she might be the exception and not the rule.

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by MIA-RN

elkpark--thank you. That is great food for thought in terms of whether I will actually find a job where I work if i do get the CNL.
The description of the degree where I am looking to attend says that CNL grads are employed as patient care facilitators, case managers, and resource nurses. I don't know if those roles traditionally require Master's education, or if there is a trend towards requiring a Master's for those roles.Sure is good to think about though...
And I agree that the requirement of several years practice as an RN are vital and Im glad the program I'm looking into requires it. I have a friend who is an NP and never worked bedside as an RN... She is amazing and absolutely wonderful at what she does...but she might be the exception and not the rule.

Those roles have been around for a long time, and have not required Master's-prepared people (as I said, the CNL descriptions I have read sound like what any seasoned, experienced RN has always been able to do, with a little extra (forgive me! ) fluff thrown in to justify the graduate degree ...) If there is a trend toward requiring MSNs for those roles, that would be news to me; people with MSNs are going to expect to get paid more than the regular "working stiffs," and I find it hard to imagine hospitals embracing the idea of paying MSN-prepared people more to do the same job that undergrad-prepared (ADN or BSN) RNs are doing perfectly well now.

[nrsjo]

Elkpark, I agree- this is a position that a seasoned, experienced RN could fulfill. It is exactly that experience which makes someone a good role model, charge nurse, preceptor, etc. An MSN is supposed to enhance that that and help you build on existing knowledge, not be a substitute for it.

As for programs which take 2nd degree students and give them an MSN which slaps on the "leader" title, I wish them well. The point was made earlier, that respect is earned, and even a well seasoned RN coming into the role finds that out. An MSN with no clinical experience is going to have a rough time.