[hypnotic_nurse]

I'm a friend of several friends of Bill W. My friends consistently refer to their "higher power"...for one friend, this is the power of the universe, for another it's Jesus, for a third it's his inner strength -- none of them have ever complained about the spirituality of the group...and they each have in excess of 10 years of sobriety.

I understand that there are may different meetings within a chapter...there are smoking groups, nonsmoking groups, professional groups...they meet nights, weekends, at lunch...if one meeting group doesn't work out, another one probably will. There are LOTS of them.

Anyone who's lost a license because they've been using/abusing/diverting at work should be very thankful they've been given a way to regain it. Sounds more like rationalization on the part of the person who doesn't want to have to do the work to get the license back, or who still wants to use.

I have the right when I am a patient to be given MY OWN MEDS and not have them eaten by the nurse or physician. A license is a privilege that you earn, and continue to earn every day by using it in the way it's supposed to be used.

[tommyperkins]

Originally Posted by efiebke

I hold this understanding too!! The 12 step program is NOT a religion. (But I can easy to understand why people may get confused on this account.)

Religions involve dogmas, "scriptures", religious leaders, formal prayer, and giving very a specific definition to a god or gods; Religion involves theology. This is not true for 12 step programs.

The origianal link included hyperlinks to all sources including the following from the Duke Law Journal:



“To determine whether AA is a religion under the Establishment Clause, courts cannot defer to AA's definition of itself. Instead, courts must examine the nature of the organization in practice. Participation in the AA system entails participation in activity that under Supreme Court precedent must be characterized as religious. Further, an examination of AA literature reveals that its dominant theme reflects elements common to most theistic religions. Thus, despite AA's assertions of secular allegiances and its disavowal of any intent to impose a particular concept of God on participants, courts should conclude that AA is a religion. And several prominent courts have done so, including the United States Courts of Appeals for the Second and Seventh Circuits and the New York Court of Appeals. AA, monotheistic in its creed and dogmatic in its practice, shares those traits which characterize organized religion today.“


http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?47+Duke+L.+J.+785

Furthermore, AA meetings begin with the group recitation of the Senerity Prayer and end with the group recitation of the Lord's Prayer. If these are not "formal" prayers then what is a formal prayer?

[tommyperkins]

Originally Posted by elkpark

Also, no one is forcing people to attend meetings and participate in AA -- it is merely offered as an option if a person wants to retain or regain a license to practice nursing. None of us has a RIGHT to a license as an RN (or LPN, or any other occupation that requires a license) -- we are granted a license by the licensing board, which is responsible to the public for ensuring that the persons it licenses are able to practice safely.

The following is taken from the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit:



“The County also argues that forcing Warner to attend Alcoholics Anonymous did not violate the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. We disagree. The Supreme Court has repeatedly made clear that "at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so.'" Lee v. Weisman”

http://www.unhooked.com/sep/warnerny.htm

Notice that they have quoted the U.S. Supreme Court and notice that they use the word “forcing”. Just how do you define the word “force”? Should we change the name of our armed forces to our armed choices just because our enemies have the “choice” to surrender?

Nursing boards all over America are not only violating the Establishment Clause, but they are also violating the Religious Test Clause of Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

Do you deny that a license to practice nursing is a public trust?

[odatrn]

Who wants to be at a meeting where there are people who are forced to be there? If they feel the spiritual part of the program is unacceptable, how do they feel about the 'anonymous' part?

I am not surprised that people who are forced to attend meetings would look for a way out. It is unfortunate that it puts the programs in the position of having to defend itself. It works because you are ready to be there, and become willing..........

[efiebke]

The following is from the West Baltimore Group A. A. web site.

________________________________

http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/religion.htm

Lets Ask Bill

These excerpts from various talks and articles by and on Bill W. reveal a wealth of the thinking and insight of the co-founder of A.A

Q - Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion? A competitor of the Church?

A - If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of "God as we understand Him." This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn't the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as the steps go, the steps are good Christianity, indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once.

Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members. No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board of Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic injunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government - they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level.

Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on the record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under any conditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never should it be called a religion. (The 'Blue Book', Vol.12, 1960)

A - Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma. The one theological proposition is a "Power greater than one's self." Even this concept is forced on no one. The new corner merely immerses himself in our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely report the onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may. Observers once thought A.A. could only appeal to the religiously susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can become remarkably open-minded. Of course we speak little of conversion nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience. (Amer. J. Psych©., Vol. 106, 1949)

[tommyperkins]

Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members. No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church.

You might consider doing some homework:

http://morerevealed.com/books/

[efiebke]

Originally Posted by tommyperkins

You might consider doing some homework:

http://morerevealed.com/books/

I have.


__________________________

Originally Posted by odatrn

Who wants to be at a meeting where there are people who are forced to be there? If they feel the spiritual part of the program is unacceptable, how do they feel about the 'anonymous' part?

I am not surprised that people who are forced to attend meetings would look for a way out. It is unfortunate that it puts the programs in the position of having to defend itself. It works because you are ready to be there, and become willing..........

Yes. . .

[VivaLasViejas]

I'm well acquainted with this issue myself, and all I know is, I don't know where I'd be today if AA hadn't been there to give me my start in sobriety 12 1/2 years ago. I'm not what I would call 'religious'---spiritual is more my style---but I took from the program what was relevant to me and left the rest. That's what people do.........it doesn't matter whether it's education, philosophy, entertainment, church, or whatever, you use what's good and don't bother with the rest of it.

But then, AA only works for those who want it to work, which is why I hate to see it required for people who don't want to be there, as a condition of staying out of jail or being allowed to keep a professional license. It makes it difficult on those who are there because they KNOW they have a problem and want help for it. Frankly, I think this whole topic is a smokescreen to enable the subject of the OP to continue to live in denial........otherwise, why throw up roadblocks to something that can, and does, work for many, many people?

Just my .02 worth.

[hypnotic_nurse]

Originally Posted by mjlrn97

Frankly, I think this whole topic is a smokescreen to enable the subject of the OP to continue to live in denial........otherwise, why throw up roadblocks to something that can, and does, work for many, many people?

Just my .02 worth.

My thought as well.

[Lemonhead]

How do you know it "works so well for so many people". What statistical studies are you gaining this information from? Propaganda?
As for making this argument a way out of participation in a program, "being in denial" or "rationalization"..all I can say, is you folks are ignorant to facts.
If you've done your "homework", you would find very poor statistics for the success rate of the 12 steps and high stats of relapse. You would also find countless other successful programs that are not offered by any state board for nurses--while physician's, pharmacists, etc in some states do have options.
Are "we" looking for a way out? Am I in denial? Hardly. You have, as 12 steppers famously do, twisted the argument and turned it back on those of us that have been forced to participate in a religious cult. That's very typical, but very sad that a group of nurses--nurses!--would do this. Would you make this same comment to a patient that expressed difficulty with these groups?
There are nurses that have stayed clean for years without 12 steps, and in some cases, despite the mind games of these groups.
If you've not been there, you cannot understand. If you've been there and it has help you--good for you. But to deny there are some serious issues within the 4 walls of these groups that ARE NOT MONITORED IN ANY FASHION, you are ignorant. How can this group spout out "but we help so many" when it is an unmonitored, anonymous organization? That is an oxymoron to the highest point. There are COUNTLESS other issues with the forced participation in these programs in addition to the religious issues. Do you realize that these programs are used by the courts for just about anything deemed an "addiction"...as in sexual addictions, etc. Yes, a judge, and in some cases, some state nursing boards, have ORDERED a sexual predator to 12 step meetings...AA meetings! The same meetings that a 17 year old young lady may be forced by the court to attend, following a first time offense. If you want to argue that point, I will post several links to support it. These meetings that nurses are forced to, are not limited to drug or alcohol problems..the 12 steps tout itself as useful to ANY type of addiction and the courts and boards feed on that..therefore, you could be exposed to some very dangerous situations, again, IN AN UNMONITORED ENVIRONMENT. And all in the name of protecting a license.
Another poster made a comment on "anonymity"...Although the meetings are supposed to be "anonymous"...hardly. There is no creed, signing in blood or any other way to enforce this. Therefore, we are FORCED to attend meetings and FORCED to participate--if we don't, a fellow 12 stepper is required to send a letter to the Board regarding our participation--if we don't participate, it's considered a relapse indicator, hence, we very well may NOT get our licenses back. So, we participate--only to be pointed out at the town grocery store, the county fair, etc by fellow 12 step members as the "nurse that did drugs".
In addition, what some of you are failing to recognize, is not every nurse is there for committing a crime or even endangering the lives of patients. If the board does not "like" the fact that you take narcs for chronic pain conditions, regardless of the fact that you do not use them while on the job--you too could be forced in to a "program" to protect your license.
There are nurses in these programs under false allegations--nurses that did not appropriately sign out narcs, accused of stealing them.
These are just a few examples of those that did NOT endanger a patient or do anything illegal.
For those that support the forced participation, I have a few questions.
How safe are these meetings? Do they force religion? How successful are they?
After you answer the questions, please back it up with statistics. And please, tell me how you know, for a fact, the answers when these thousands of meetings are not monitored, have a continually rotating and changing membership, do not keep attendance, and do not follow up with any participant on a long term basis.
Who runs the meetings? Not a trained mental health professional. There may never be a trained mental health professional unless they happen to be in recovery themselves. These meetings are run purely by the "been there, done it" class and "this is the only thing that works" mindset. So, as NURSES, would you do this to any other patient with a "disease" or physical condition? Would you sit a schizophrenic in a room full of schizophrenics for "therapy" and "support"? Without a capable, mental health trained professional in attendance? Would you send a pregnant patient to have a c/section performed by a mother that had one previously? Without a professional in attendance to MONITOR and FACILITATE the process?
If you would, you deserve a license far less than I do. Key point...THESE MEETINGS ARE NOT MONITORED BY ANY PROFESSIONAL. THESE MEETINGS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROFESSIONAL GUIDELINES. THESE MEETINGS ARE NOT GOVERNED BY ANY ENTITY AND DO NOT HAVE TO REPORT TO ANY AGENCY. And most importantly--it is NOT just for support..there is a "plan" of the 12 steps that the nurse MUST "work through" with another AA participant--and this process IS reported to the Board by the fellow AA member--wether he/she be a factory worker, topless dancer or maintenance man--is this who you would want to be forced to share you most intimate and damning "secrets" with? Sorry folks, but I'll take the professionally trained mental health professional that is bound to confidentiality laws and best knows how to guide me through a process....