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alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder



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  #41  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 04:29 PM
EricEnfermero's Avatar
EricEnfermero (Male)
Call me Eric
Join Date: Nov 2005
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

Originally Posted by hsieh
how is it inhumane to put somebody in an enviroment where they get better?
No one is asserting that it would be inhumane or unethical to make people better. The concern is that there's no evidence that exile to Africa heals people who already suffer from borderline personality disorder. In fact, there are significant risks which make it unthinkable to most of us. You said yourself that it takes all of a person's energy to survive in a third world country. Imagine if a person with already poor coping skills were placed in the same environment. If the person did not die from self-harm/suicide related to worsening psychological issues, there's still a significant possibility of death from exposure to disease or hunger.

The other issue: If it became widely known that psychological 'troublemakers' got shipped off to another country, would that truly decrease the incidence of mental health problems, or would it simply lead to more untreated people with mental illness?

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  #42  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 04:47 PM
cardiacRN2006's Avatar
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

Originally Posted by EricEnfermero

The other issue: If it became widely known that psychological 'troublemakers' got shipped off to another country, would that truly decrease the incidence of mental health problems, or would it simply lead to more untreated people with mental illness?
That's a great point Eric. It would severly restrict people from seeking any kind of treatment if our therapeutic goal was to get rid of people who we see as 'untreatable' in our society.

If we, as nurses, think it's inhumane and unthinkable to ship them off someplace else, what does it say to the patients? To me, it says, we are incapable of treating certain disorders. Now boarderliners, then criminals, maybe people with bipolar....I mean, if we get away with it once, why not send all people with mental illnesses away? Sounds like 1933 Germany...

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  #43  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 04:55 PM
Thunderwolf's Avatar
Thunderwolf (Male)
MSN, MSEd, RN
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Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

Very good discussion.

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  #44  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 05:11 PM
mercyteapot's Avatar
I Like Pie&VDO
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Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

Originally Posted by cardiacRN2006
That's a great point Eric. It would severly restrict people from seeking any kind of treatment if our therapeutic goal was to get rid of people who we see as 'untreatable' in our society.

If we, as nurses, think it's inhumane and unthinkable to ship them off someplace else, what does it say to the patients? To me, it says, we are incapable of treating certain disorders. Now boarderliners, then criminals, maybe people with bipolar....I mean, if we get away with it once, why not send all people with mental illnesses away? Sounds like 1933 Germany...
You know, it's funny you should mention 1933 Germany, because I was thinking my primary problem with this whole idea is reflected in that prayer written by a Lutheran minister about the Nazi reign:

When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing because I was not a Catholic.
When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because I was not a Jew.
When they came for the union members, I said nothing because I was not a union member.
When they came for me, no one said anything, because they all had already been taken.


Last edited by mercyteapot : Jun 25, 2006 at 05:15 PM.
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  #45  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 06:48 PM
Senior Member
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Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

if somebody said to me you can go live in a third world country for (?) six months (?) and they would take care of my expenses and responsibilities here i would jump at the opportunity. i think it would be great to experience what others do. the idea of sending a disordered person to another enviroment is not a punishment but a development opportunity - just as it would be for any of us. and i would still like to hear other people's ideas of alternate treatments - all's i hear other people talk about is traditional treatment.

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  #46  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 07:01 PM
mercyteapot's Avatar
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Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

Originally Posted by hsieh
if somebody said to me you can go live in a third world country for (?) six months (?) and they would take care of my expenses and responsibilities here i would jump at the opportunity. i think it would be great to experience what others do. the idea of sending a disordered person to another enviroment is not a punishment but a development opportunity - just as it would be for any of us. and i would still like to hear other people's ideas of alternate treatments - all's i hear other people talk about is traditional treatment.
You still refuse to tell us who is going to pay for this. I assume we can all agree that there isn't a chance in Hades that public and private funded insurance is going to agree, and it is unlikely that patients themselves will have the resources or inclination to pay their own way. You may consider such details irrelevant, but in reality, no tickie=no washie.


Last edited by mercyteapot : Jun 25, 2006 at 07:40 PM.
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  #47  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 07:25 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

somebody who wants to spend money to pioneer research in alternate treatments for boderline personality disorder. now excuse me, i'm going to go watch meerkat manor on the animal planet channel.

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  #48  
Old Jun 25, 2006, 07:59 PM
multicollinearity's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

This is the most (((unusual))) thread I have ever read on this forum. My mother is a borderline. Dropping her off in Africa for six months would not help her. She would just struggle for survival and would suffer like anyone else there. The patterns are deeply ingrained. I would imagine violent behavior might occur once a borderline came home to the US. It's not like correcting attitude and behavior problems in young people like can be done with boot camp. This is not a behavior slide that can be adjusted by a change in environment. Borderlines have maladaptive behavior that is deeply ingrained like the color of the sky in my world and yours.

Also, borderlines have a terror of being abandoned. It is distinctly different than our normal fear of losing those we love, or being alone. Nothing like dropping them off in a 3rd world country away from their home country to make them feel abandoned. Many would simply have a psychotic break and/or figure out how to off themselves. If they don't commit suicide then they would come home injured and hurt worse off from being abandoned. This is not even addressing the ethical issues that remind me of the holocaust. Thank you to a previous poster for bringing that up.

I think it is naive to think that some sort of survival experience might make the disorder go away. It's a Maslow's hierarchy issue to a large extent. If I were dropped off in Africa for six months, you bet I wouldn't be so concerned about my various physical ailments. I would be too busy trying to meet basic survival needs. That doesn't mean that my physical ailments aren't there though. Same with borderlines. There is some extremely bizarre logic here and denying of Maslow's.

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  #49  
Old Jun 26, 2006, 03:00 AM
rn/writer's Avatar
Mom/Mima 2 many
Join Date: Dec 2004
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

[quote=hsieh]
to rnwriter post #29 - yes that is exactly what i'm saying. and as far as making nasty comments about patients - cancer is very difficult to treat and sometimes not curable - but even though cancer is difficult you still don't make nasty comments about people with cancer. that's because you know it's not their fault. when a practitioner makes nasty comments about a diseased person that means the practitioner holds that patient responsible for their disorder.
Cancer patients are usually involved in a collaborative relationship with their clinicians. Everyone is on the same side, fighting the disease together. There are lab tests and tissue slides that give the enemy an identity and provide a way to keep tabs on the progress being made. Even when things are not going well, there is still a good chance that solidarity will prevail.

Borderline personality disorder is exactly the opposite. There is often an adversarial rather than a collaborative atmosphere. Borderline patients have a bleak inner landscape, meaning that they have a very hard time knowing who they are and what they feel apart from the responses they create in others. They sometimes don't feel that they show up unless they see themselves reflected in someone else's eyes. One surefire way to get a reaction is to provoke the other person. Pick a fight. Break a rule. Challenge a statement. Ask for something inappropriate. This is NOT the norm for cancer patients.

It takes a great deal of patience, energy, and self control to keep from getting sucked in to a borderline patient's vortex. It seems like they are honor-bound to try to pull others into their chaotic world and we are honor-bound to resist. In the thick of the fray, it is all too easy to forget that they aren't choosing to be this way in the way that we normally think of exercising choice.

The negative behavior you have mentioned from mental health practitioners is more complicated than simply holding a patient responsible for their illness. Certainly, that can be a factor, but it's not the only one.

Just as you would like to see the benefit of the doubt extended to borderline patients, it also needs to be given to caregivers, most of whom DO want to provide humane and decent treatment to this most needy of groups. Few of us get up in the morning and say, "Let's go pick on some mentally ill people." The thing is, we are rarely given anything close to the proper tools (training, treatment plans, authority, etc.) to help this highly unresponsive population. And not knowing how to help them or protect ourselves from the emotions they stir up, we do become prone to using black humor and negative stereotyping to try to keep our OWN sanity. I'm willing to bet we'd see a lot less of this stress-generated behavior among caregivers if we understood better what the world looks like to borderline patients AND if we had more effective ways to help them.

This downward spiral consists of:

1) A group of people whose illness includes behavior that irritates and exhausts others, and who resist many treatment options because they have been strongly conditioned by earlier damage to choose rebellion (overt or subtle) over trust in the name of a false sense of self-protection.

2) An illness that cannot be quantified or qualified by lab tests, tissue studies, MRIs, CT scans, or any other objective data. An illness that often masqerades as personality, temperament, culture, attitude, and any number of other attributes that make it look like the person has a direct choice over the way they interact with others. You also have patients who lie, manipulate, coerce, flirt, beg, threaten, and do whatever else they can to get their needs met and keep others off balance because this is how they have learned to feel "safe." Every bit of this is counterproductive to healing. It is also rare to find these behaviors in those afflicted with cancer or other strictly somatic complaints.

3) Practitioners who are discouraged, hamstrung, weary, frightened, enraged, and, most important, human. Borderline patients have a knack for exploiting the caring that family, friends, employers, and clinicians show to them. If help is not offered in very structured ways, it can end up being destructive to everyone involved.

Back to the cancer patients. If a doc or a nurse was dealing with a cancer patient who agreed to follow a particular regimen but skipped appointments, lied about taking meds, exaggerated side effects to invite a sympathetic response, stirred up trouble in the cancer support group, engaged in risky behaviors like going to parties with a compromised immune system, flirted with staff members, asked for inappropriate extra attention, and had excuses for every single problem brought to their attention, you would be very likely to see the same reaction that you judge pretty harshly in the caregivers of borderline patients.

I'd like to ask you, hsieh, what alternative ideas you have for clinicians to help their borderline patients--in practice, not in theory--and still keep their own frustration level in check.

Please answer with a view to clinical situations here and now, not what might happen if these patients were shipped to a third world country. That's another topic which I would like to address in a subsequent post.

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  #50  
Old Jun 26, 2006, 07:18 AM
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Re: alternate ways of treating borderline personality disorder

my views are different from most of the posts. i learned my views from my workplace. i guess the culture of my workplace views borderline as nothing more than maniputlative drama kings/queens.

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