[Elvish]

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

PS--- doctors should have the right to refuse training and participation in therapeutic abortion, IMO. As should nurses and pharmacists. As long as this is made clear to patients, and also, as long there is an alternative for such patients to seek, I have no problem with this.

[kittagirl]

Nurses in the UK are fully within their rights to refuse to participate in abortion, and their decision and job are protected.

I’m not going to get in to the abortion debate, each of us know where they stand ….etc

The thing is this is the tip of a of a wider problem in the UK, with some trainee doctors refusing to attend lectures about and ultimately treat patients with Sexually Transmitted Illnesses, stating religion as their reason/excuse.
There has also been, originally isolated, now becoming a bit more common GP’s refusing to treat Gay and Lesbian patients, people with drug problems, patients with alcohol related diseases as their life style/choices (their words not mine) are against their religion.

As GP’s in Britain are paid by the government to provide a service to the general public, and the government also pays for their training, it’s a touchy subject.
There are enough private health care providers springing up in the UK that if you as a doctor are that opposed to any of the above it wouldn’t be difficult to find another job.

The other issue is the abortion law in the UK, which requires 2 doctors to sign off an abortion. So if you live in a rural area that only has one GP practice with 2 doc’s and one or both refuse to help a patient obtain an abortion it means that for some, particularly the younger and more vulnerable there may be no alternative; as although traditionally it was also acknowledged that if a doc was against abortion that he/she was obliged to refer you on to a doctor who could/would help. This is also been ignored. If you have not been referred on it is virtually impossible to get on a new GP list.

There are also opinions floating around in the ‘older’ medical world (i.e.: 4 consultants I worked with today, I know not a true sample group, but at least I’m honest….but it is a hot topic at the minute; just as a extra this was 3 men 1 woman, the woman is pregnant, all the men have children, ant the ethnic/ religious mix 1 Chinese/ British, 1 Egyptian, 1 white British and 1 white British/Greek; no religion, RC, Muslim, and Atheist ) that students are opting out and claiming religious grounds as it makes their life easier, it is one less lecture series to take, one less procedure to learn and there’s no come back.

Anyway I think I’ve forgotten my point, oh yea there’s a lot more to this that meets the eye at first there is also the fact that a lot of doctors oppose nurses performing abortions as well. In other words we don’t want to do it but we don’t want you to either.

[brefni]

Seems that these docs are using religion as an excuse for indifference toward human suffering.

[Suesquatch]

kittagirl, thanks for your inout from the side of the pond that it's happening.

[htrn]

I may be wrong, but isn't a surgical abortion the same procedure as a suction D&C performed in the case of partial miscarriage. I cannot believe that med students are able to opt out of/refuse to learn a procedure because one of it's uses is elective AB. This can also be used as an argument for the use of RU 486 vs surgical abortion.

[gentle]

Very interesting article.

Originally Posted by brefni

These doctors are not thinking about the consequences of abortion not being safe and accessible and because it's a simple and "lowly" procedure, why not dump the responsibility on nurses. A similar issue is popping up here in NC with the death penalty. Doctors are refusing to push the syringe and now the state is considering allowing nurses to do it.

I think SmilingBluEyes said it best. IMO, we should all have to the right to choose whether we will participate or provide services for therapeutic abortions, assisted suicide, or physically carry out the death penalty. (VENT--- What idiots come up with the ideas that they are "allowing" me to do something that I probably don't want to do anyway. Like . . . this is a priviledge to extract a dead fetus or kill off a convicted felon. Now perhaps this isn't what the idiots meant . . . but, well . . . VENT concluded)

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

PS--- doctors should have the right to refuse training and participation in therapeutic abortion, IMO. As should nurses and pharmacists. As long as this is made clear to patients, and also, as long there is an alternative for such patients to seek, I have no problem with this.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Baptized_By_Fire

The ANA states we as nurses have the right to refuse to participate in procedures that we are morally against, as long as the patient is not placed in danger as a result of that decision. I'm wondering if the AMA has a similar position.

Good Question.

Originally Posted by kittagirl

Nurses in the UK are fully within their rights to refuse to participate in abortion, and their decision and job are protected.

The thing is this is the tip of a of a wider problem in the UK, with some trainee doctors refusing to attend lectures about and ultimately treat patients with Sexually Transmitted Illnesses, stating religion as their reason/excuse.
There has also been, originally isolated, now becoming a bit more common GP’s refusing to treat Gay and Lesbian patients, people with drug problems, patients with alcohol related diseases as their life style/choices (their words not mine) are against their religion.

As GP’s in Britain are paid by the government to provide a service to the general public, and the government also pays for their training, it’s a touchy subject.
There are enough private health care providers springing up in the UK that if you as a doctor are that opposed to any of the above it wouldn’t be difficult to find another job.

The other issue is the abortion law in the UK, which requires 2 doctors to sign off an abortion. So if you live in a rural area that only has one GP practice with 2 doc’s and one or both refuse to help a patient obtain an abortion it means that for some, particularly the younger and more vulnerable there may be no alternative; as although traditionally it was also acknowledged that if a doc was against abortion that he/she was obliged to refer you on to a doctor who could/would help. This is also been ignored. If you have not been referred on it is virtually impossible to get on a new GP list.

There are also opinions floating around in the ‘older’ medical world (i.e.: 4 consultants I worked with today, I know not a true sample group, but at least I’m honest….but it is a hot topic at the minute; just as a extra this was 3 men 1 woman, the woman is pregnant, all the men have children, ant the ethnic/ religious mix 1 Chinese/ British, 1 Egyptian, 1 white British and 1 white British/Greek; no religion, RC, Muslim, and Atheist ) that students are opting out and claiming religious grounds as it makes their life easier, it is one less lecture series to take, one less procedure to learn and there’s no come back.

Anyway I think I’ve forgotten my point, oh yea there’s a lot more to this that meets the eye at first there is also the fact that a lot of doctors oppose nurses performing abortions as well. In other words we don’t want to do it but we don’t want you to either.

Thank you for the information. It is unfortunate that the physicians won't at least refer the soon to be mother, to another physician or organization that can help her. To add to this, the refusal to care for people based on their lifestyle choices. Then to top off this big nasty mess to accept money from the government for education and current payment for services!!??

It appears there are a few physicians who should go to jail for stealing. These individuals are thieves. If they didn't don't want to provide services for said individuals then reimburse the government for every dime taken.

We all have religious and ethical morals/values which come into conflict with our ability to provide care for patients; however, when able, we get over it.

If we can't, then, we refer.

[Selke]

Medical and surgical abortion should be within the scope of practice of advanced practice RNs, NPs, and CNMs. They are able to provide these services in a few states, actually.

True, providers should be able to opt out of procedures they find morally objectionable, and abortion is the only one I can think of that has a bit of legitimacy to refuse, but there must be limits. For medical students to refuse education on STIs, to refuse to treat gays and lesbians, to refuse to do abortions, are all quite different things. Why should society and tax dollars pay for physician training if they then get to pick and choose which patients and which illnesses they want to treat? The ones with so many moral scruples and judgements and lack of compassion for other people need to go into another profession than health care. I would like to have one of these judgmental MDs look me right in the eye and tell me that he will not treat me because I am a lesbian.

Abortion is legal in the USA and women have the right to access health care providers who can provide this service, regardless of individual judgement and condemnation of women who have abortions.

[rnmomtobe2010]

Um!um!um!!