[PMFB-RN]

*** Hey David, thanks for your reply.

There are a lot of nurses that feel the way you do. We had four RN's in our class. One of the areas of medical experience that any PA school will accept is nursing. Ultimately the decision between NP and PA is multi factorial. There are certain areas that are dominated by on side or the other. For example there are many more PAs working in surgery than NPs.

*** This is exactly what I wanted to know. AT my particular medical center this is true as well but there are exceptions. I know I want to work in EM or surgery.

You also have to consider your environment. If I wanted to work at Vanderbilt I would not consider PA. If I wanted to work at Duke I would not consider NP. You have to assess the local market and see what that will support.

*** I don't want environment to wag the dog so to speak. I am planning on returning to my home are of one of the western Mountain states. I am willing to go where the opportunity's are.

Another factor is lifestyle and learning style. Many NP programs can be done part time by working. Almost all PA programs prohibit working while in the program.

*** Not really an issue for me as either way I plan on going full time and devoting myself full time to whatever program. I have the opportunity to do so because of my current family situation.

I can't speak for the educational style of NP programs, but there was very little information that wasn't clinically relevant. Of the 1700 clock hours in my didactic program, about 50 were not directly related to clinical medicine. Even this was related to billing, coding, the history of the PA profession etc.

*** Thanks, that's very encouraging. I dread taking "Nursing Theory" and similar classes.

I can't speak for NP education but PA education is incredibly focused on clinical competency. The guidelines published are derived from surveys of what PAs actually do in practice. The testing done is based on that same data.

*** More good new that jibes with what I have already learned.

The only caveat I would warn you about the school that you are considering is that this is the only PA school that wants you to fine your own clinical sites. In theory they will provide sites, but because of this they are not well thought of in the community.

*** Really? The University of North Dakota is not well thought of? Doesn't the Standford program also require students to find their own clinical sites? That would make at least two that require students to find their own clinicals. The UND program requires the student to find a family practice or IM MD or DO to be their preceptor. This isn't the slightest problem for me. I work for a large and famous medical center in the upper midwest. It has a special office for this exact thing. You just register for the type of preceptor you need and they match you up with one. It's a benefit of employment, with the hope that you will continue to work for them after graduation. In addition to that our own family doctor, who we have known for years has offered to be my preceptor.

On the other hand I have never worked with one of their graduates and they have a decent first time pass rate. I would urge you to look around at some of the other programs. If you have your BSN you should be within 2-3 classes of most programs.

*** Thing is I am not even close. At least not to the programs in the upper midwest, except UND. I am one year into my RN to BSN and to meet the requirements of UW LaCrosse, UW Madison, Marquet, or any of the schools in MN would require a year of college full time or two of part time to even qualify to apply.
Thanks for your advice and help.

[core0]

Originally Posted by PMFB-RN

*** Really? The University of North Dakota is not well thought of? Doesn't the Standford program also require students to find their own clinical sites? That would make at least two that require students to find their own clinicals. The UND program requires the student to find a family practice or IM MD or DO to be their preceptor. This isn't the slightest problem for me. I work for a large and famous medical center in the upper midwest. It has a special office for this exact thing. You just register for the type of preceptor you need and they match you up with one. It's a benefit of employment, with the hope that you will continue to work for them after graduation. In addition to that our own family doctor, who we have known for years has offered to be my preceptor.

My understanding is that Stanford did away with this requirement. I cannot find it on their prerequisites. ARC-PA passed a rule this year that PA programs should not force students to find preceptors. The general consensus is that they will change this to may not in the next couple of years. They also passed a rule that programs must offer the same academic support and evaluation services to students at all sites. This has caused a number of programs to cut back on allowing students to arrange their own rotations since they have the same obligation to evaluate preceptors as the ones they select. I think there is some leniency in overseas sites.

Don't get me wrong, I benefited from this significantly. I arranged more than half of my rotations in Denver where I live. The reality is though is that ARC-PA has been cracking down on this since it has been identified as a major weakness in the quality of clinical experience.

On the other hand I have never worked with one of their graduates and they have a decent first time pass rate. I would urge you to look around at some of the other programs. If you have your BSN you should be within 2-3 classes of most programs.

*** Thing is I am not even close. At least not to the programs in the upper midwest, except UND. I am one year into my RN to BSN and to meet the requirements of UW LaCrosse, UW Madison, Marquet, or any of the schools in MN would require a year of college full time or two of part time to even qualify to apply.
Thanks for your advice and help.

You are going to need a bachelors to get into UND. The issue will be timing. Most programs close their application process in September to November. Some will allow you to complete pre-reqs after but some won't. No matter what you are probably looking at a 2009 start date. If you did your pre-reqs then finished your BSN after you turned in your app you should be able to finish it. Also look outside the midwest for programs. Approximately 1/3 of the PA programs are in PA and NY. It is sometimes easier to get in there than some of the midwest programs. Marquet and UW LaCrosse can be incredibly competitive at times. You can use the CASPA system to apply:https://portal.caspaonline.org/
Although I don't see Marquet. Not saying that UND is necessarily bad, but you have to keep your eyes open. I will also say that given the volume of material that you get in PA school it would take a special student to do the didactic portion online. It would also depend on whether you want to do specialty care. You will not have as much opportunity as in other programs. One of the PAs that posts on Physicianassistantforum.com had decided that he wanted to go into EM. He did almost 5 months of his 12 months of rotations in EM or related sites. This is the variability that you will have with a more traditional program that you will not have with UND (or Stanford).

David Carpenter, PA-C

[jjjoy]

Originally Posted by core0

Its all about wanting it. The students you will be competing for the slots really want it.

My point was just that for most RN-BSNs, they will need more than just 2-3 courses to be eligible for most PA programs.

I'm curious if you think that the science requirements for PA programs are NECESSARY, if they mostly function as WEEDER courses, or whatever other opinion you might have.

Since medical programs have tended to have these pre-reqs and nursing programs generally haven't had as high level chem/math/etc requirements, I wonder at how or if that reflects in NP vs PA practice in similar roles.

[caldje]

for the poster that asked about students required to find their own rotation sites.. this has been addressed in the new arc-pa standards. The programs are now required to PROVIDE the sites. Following are the ARC-PA standards.

B7 Supervised Clinical Practice

B7.01 The program must provide medical and surgical clinical practice experiences that enable
students to meet program expectations and acquire the competencies needed for clinical
PA practice.
B7.02 The program must assure that all sites used for students during supervised clinical
practice meet the program's prescribed expectations for student learning and
performance evaluation measures, regardless of location.
B7.03 Supervised clinical practice experience should be provided in the following settings:
a) outpatient.
b) emergency.
c) inpatient.
d) long-term care.
B7.04 The program must document that every student has supervised clinical practice
experiences in:
a) emergency medicine.
b) family medicine.
c) general internal medicine.
d) general surgical care, including operative experiences.
e) geriatrics.
f) pediatrics.
g) prenatal care and women’s health.
h) psychiatry and/or behavioral medicine.

[core0]

Originally Posted by caldje

for the poster that asked about students required to find their own rotation sites.. this has been addressed in the new arc-pa standards. The programs are now required to PROVIDE the sites. Following are the ARC-PA standards.
snip

Unfortunately that is not completely true. This is from the administrative section:
A3.06 The program should not require that students supply their own clinical sites or preceptors for program-required clinical rotations.

There is a difference between must not and should not. My understanding is that this was put into place to give warning to schools that require students to find preceptors and that in the next 2-3 years it will be changed to must not. On the other hand if the student does not have a preceptor the school must find one. So if you show up at UND with a preceptor and they back out the school is obligated to find you one or they will be out of compliance with ARC-PA standards. So the school can make the students find preceptors but the onus is on the program to make sure these site are appropriate and provide the learning experience. Also the school is on the hook to provide the site if it doesn't work out.

David Carpenter, PA-C

[beckinben]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

My point was just that for most RN-BSNs, they will need more than just 2-3 courses to be eligible for most PA programs.

I'm curious if you think that the science requirements for PA programs are NECESSARY, if they mostly function as WEEDER courses, or whatever other opinion you might have.

Since medical programs have tended to have these pre-reqs and nursing programs generally haven't had as high level chem/math/etc requirements, I wonder at how or if that reflects in NP vs PA practice in similar roles.

In terms of do you need the science prereqs for PA school, I can tell you my experience. I have 3 degrees, two summa cum laude. I'm usually considered a smart person. The basic science class - biochem/physiology - in my PA program KICKED MY BUTT. Hardest class I have ever taken. I passed, but I have never worked so hard in my life. The graduate curriculum for my MSN was a breeze in comparison.

So if you are thinking about PA school, take as much science as you can before. You'll need it. I don't regret for a moment going through a PA program, even though I ended up doing a CNM program and now practice only as a CNM. I have a much firmer grasp on the whys of what we do because of the basic science I got in the PA program than I would have doing just a MSN. (Except maybe for CRNA - that's a pretty intense curriculum too).

[PMFB-RN]

You are going to need a bachelors to get into UND.

*** Ya, I know. It says so right on their web site. The same is true for CRNA school (which I am also considering), but not true for NP. I could go from ADN RN to MSN NP in 5 semesters, no BSN needed or received in several programs.

The issue will be timing. Most programs close their application process in September to November. Some will allow you to complete pre-reqs after but some won't. No matter what you are probably looking at a 2009 start date.

*** I am planning on starting in early summer 2008. If I were to go to another PA school I would have to wait until 2010.

If you did your pre-reqs then finished your BSN after you turned in your app you should be able to finish it.

*** I am well into my BSN and should graduate in December 2007. Doing pre reqs would add another 2 years of part time study. I can afford to study full time for two years, not a year of full time pre-reqs and then 2 years of PA school. If that's the case I will just put all my effort into CRNA school. No further pre-reqs required.

Also look outside the midwest for programs. Approximately 1/3 of the PA programs are in PA and NY. It is sometimes easier to get in there than some of the midwest programs.

*** I either have to go locally or do on-line. UND is the only program I found with significant portions online.

Marquet and UW LaCrosse can be incredibly competitive at times. You can use the CASPA system to apply:https://portal.caspaonline.org/
Although I don't see Marquet.

*** I know, in addition to being very competitive UW LaCrosse requires 26 units of pre-reqs I don't and won't have from my nursing program that would not be required for CRNA school or NP school.
http://www.uwlax.edu/pastudies/admis...requisites.htm

Not saying that UND is necessarily bad,

*** But you did say that UND didn't have a good reputation. I didn't get that impression from any of the UND PAs I work with.

but you have to keep your eyes open. I will also say that given the volume of material that you get in PA school it would take a special student to do the didactic portion online.

*** I am a special student

It would also depend on whether you want to do specialty care. You will not have as much opportunity as in other programs. One of the PAs that posts on Physicianassistantforum.com had decided that he wanted to go into EM. He did almost 5 months of his 12 months of rotations in EM or related sites. This is the variability that you will have with a more traditional program that you will not have with UND (or Stanford).

*** I understand what you are saying. I also have to consider that I know several UND grads (that's how I first learned of the UND program) working in CV and neuro surgery as well as the critical care PA on my unit is a UND grad. I did my RN program at a tiny community college and we did all our clinicals at 25 bed rural community access hospitals that didn't even have ICUs and I had no problem going directly to work in a large hospital ICU. True I did pick a hospital with a good ICU training program.
I hate to see PA or any education further restricted. I wonder why they are choosing to further restrict PA school to people who would otherwise be able to go?

[PMFB-RN]

Originally Posted by core0

My understanding is that this was put into place to give warning to schools that require students to find preceptors and that in the next 2-3 years it will be changed to must not.

*** Why? WHy do they want to reduce the number of opportunities available? Is the idea to restrict the number of grad to increase pay for existing PAs?

[jjjoy]

It's not to reduce to opportunities as I understand it. It's to keep students who for whatever reason haven't been able to come up with their own site from being stuck without any options. Presumably, students could still arrange their own sites as long as the sites met whatever requirements the school sets.

[core0]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

It's not to reduce to opportunities as I understand it. It's to keep students who for whatever reason haven't been able to come up with their own site from being stuck without any options. Presumably, students could still arrange their own sites as long as the sites met whatever requirements the school sets.

Exactly. I believe there is a thread on this. Part of the educational mission is to provide sufficient resources to complete the educational process. You are still allowed to make your own arrangements but ARC-PA is making it very clear that you are not allowed to lower your standards to do this. This is really for the protection of the student. You have to complete all the appropriate rotations to graduate and get certified.

I had this happen on my last rotation when the practice that I was going to do my rotation in disintegrated one month before I was going to start. I was able to find another rotation but my school made it clear that they had multiple rotations for me. My program had 3 full time clinical coordinators to find new sites and check on students during their rotations. They visited me twice on away sites and most of the nearby sites.

Consider in the ND program if the practice decides they can't take you after you start the program. Now you are able to do the didactic portion but not the clinical portion and will not be able to graduate. The ARC-PA rule are meant to protect the student and preserve the educational environment.

David Carpenter, PA-C