[patnshan]

Originally Posted by Bibeau1

Hi, I will be graduating from graduate school with a msn /FNP. I always thought there was no difference between the NP role and a PA role , But there are many.
One of my preceptors is a PA. She has been a great teacher and role model. We have compared education and this is what we have concluded.
PA's do have more actual clinical time then NP's . The focus of an NP program is academics because they feel we are already nurses. That I believe is our short coming. I really feel there should be more focus on actual practicums and less on the profession at hand , ( but that's my opinion ).
NP's, on the other hand, bring our compassion , & our hands on in patient care that ONLY an experienced nurse can bring. our caring touch, the fact that we listen is most valuable in a time when time with a patient is so very limited.
I want you to look at the how the PA's interact with patients as compared to a NP. Any one can function clinically , but compassion and empathy are clearly a nurses domain.

I was with you until you said that nurses are ahead in the compassion thing. That is individual, and is not LEARNED!
Otherwise, I agree with everything you said. NP's do need much more clinical time, or advanced practicum, as you call it. The amount I have seen involved in many NP programs I have researched is WAY too thin to even think about being ready to practice dependently, much less independently. That is where the gripe most PA's have with the NP movement arises from. We are trained much more in the clinical aspect especially, and still have no desire to be independent. I went to mursing school and practiced as a nurse, which gives me the experience to know that being a nurse is quite helpful, but no substitute.
I appreciate your most reasonable comment, except for the empathy stuff

Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

[Jayla]

[quote=Tony35NYC]I know there will probably be a tomato throw after I say this, but I don't understand why there are so many contentious debates about the differences between NPs and PAs. At the hospital where I work, many of the physicians work with both NPs and PAs. Both do pretty much the same things from what I have observed and they also make about the same amount of money from what I've heard.

Exactly! I've been checking this post on occasion and can't believe how petty some comments have been.

I've heard lowly med students refer to NPs and PAs as "mid-level" practitioners. I'm sure this is an accepted term out there somewhere, but to me it seems way too condescending. PAs and NPs should be working together more to earn the respect they deserve.

PAs and NPs are in more demand these days to meet the needs of patients who may not otherwise have adequate access to health care. Maybe we should stop focusing on "who's better" and focus instead on providing patients with the care they need and deserve.

Jayla, RN-BSN, PHN, BA, ATBFNP (aspiring to be family nurse pracitioner)

[patnshan]

[quote=Jayla]

Originally Posted by Tony35NYC

I know there will probably be a tomato throw after I say this, but I don't understand why there are so many contentious debates about the differences between NPs and PAs. At the hospital where I work, many of the physicians work with both NPs and PAs. Both do pretty much the same things from what I have observed and they also make about the same amount of money from what I've heard.

Exactly! I've been checking this post on occasion and can't believe how petty some comments have been.

I've heard lowly med students refer to NPs and PAs as "mid-level" practitioners. I'm sure this is an accepted term out there somewhere, but to me it seems way too condescending. PAs and NPs should be working together more to earn the respect they deserve.

PAs and NPs are in more demand these days to meet the needs of patients who may not otherwise have adequate access to health care. Maybe we should stop focusing on "who's better" and focus instead on providing patients with the care they need and deserve.

Jayla, RN-BSN, PHN, BA, ATBFNP (aspiring to be family nurse pracitioner)

OK. But we are midlevel providers. What else would you call something in between a nurse and a doctor?

Pat

[KrisRNwannabe]

I agree, I am not a nurse yet but I have always considered myself a kind and compassionate person. I have a friend who is a PA and she is the sweetest most caring person i have ever met. I have met several nurses that were standing in a different line when god was passing out kindness and compassion. these are traits learned in life, not in nursing school.

[MrBob]

[quote=Jayla]

Originally Posted by Tony35NYC

I know there will probably be a tomato throw after I say this, but I don't understand why there are so many contentious debates about the differences between NPs and PAs. At the hospital where I work, many of the physicians work with both NPs and PAs. Both do pretty much the same things from what I have observed and they also make about the same amount of money from what I've heard.

Exactly! I've been checking this post on occasion and can't believe how petty some comments have been.

I've heard lowly med students refer to NPs and PAs as "mid-level" practitioners. I'm sure this is an accepted term out there somewhere, but to me it seems way too condescending. PAs and NPs should be working together more to earn the respect they deserve.

PAs and NPs are in more demand these days to meet the needs of patients who may not otherwise have adequate access to health care. Maybe we should stop focusing on "who's better" and focus instead on providing patients with the care they need and deserve.

Jayla, RN-BSN, PHN, BA, ATBFNP (aspiring to be family nurse pracitioner)

Jayla...you are way beyond your years in wisdom regarding this matter....the fact is there is no CLINICAL difference....the difference is philosphical, pure and simple....I have been a PA for 25 years and at the grassroots level we all get along (at least in my state) I precept NP students in my clinic and was asked by the NP programs to do this.....My PA students are precepted by NP's ( I teach in one of the programs)....the difference is a topic sought out by those small PA's and NP's who think they are the only ones who exist.....those of us who really work for a living don't see the point in arguing small stuff and those of us who agree with you about joining forces have joined the American College of Clinicians...an organization born out of the same concerns you make....why don't we just stick together???

When the tomatoes come...just duck you are a bigger person for your insight and ability to look beyond the idiocy of that argument!! good luck on your journey to NP school!!

Robert Hollingworth MS, PA-C

[FNP/DNP]

Originally Posted by jstuben

Hello. I am considering NP and PA school. I have a few years of experience as an ED Tech in a Level 3 Trauma Center in California (busy, but not too intense). Our ED is staffed with PA's no NP's.

I have a few questions about clinical differences between NP's and PA's. I know that PA's seem to have a great ability to work in surgery specialites like ortho, neuro, peds, and cardio surgery. They do pre and post surgery exams, order interpret tests, and prescibe meds (at least in 47-49 states). Are there any NP's on this forum who do this? Are there any in California who can comment?

Second. I know that most PA schools have a much longer clinical component than do NP schools. I have been told it is because NP's already have so much clinical experience as nurses. But can you really compare the two? In our ED, the nurses are not making differential diagnoses, determining etiology of disease, etc. etc., they are monitering the pt's overall state and response to the treatment ordered by the Physician (or sometimes PA). Therefore, does this experience compare to the rigorous training PA's get in diagnosing?

Part of my interest in medicine is the actual procedures themselves. I want to do chest tubes, central lines, suturing, first assistant surgery, etc. etc. Are there any NP's out there who are doing this?

Finally, I know some people (including some nurses) who deride the "nursing diagnosis" concept. Can anyone offer up a brief rationale for how nursing diagnoses are of value to an NP in clinical practice?

Thank you very much!

As an NP new to the emergency room, I would recommend PA school to you, unless you attend an EDNP program (Houston or Loyola). They are better trained in all of the things you mentioned. I am sure some NP's will get riled up over this, but not many NP programs are offering extensive procedure training in addition to primary care with pediatrics, as you would need in the ED. ED programs do and you can then sit for the FNP exam.

[patnshan]

Originally Posted by FNP/DNP

As an NP new to the emergency room, I would recommend PA school to you, unless you attend an EDNP program (Houston or Loyola). They are better trained in all of the things you mentioned. I am sure some NP's will get riled up over this, but not many NP programs are offering extensive procedure training in addition to primary care with pediatrics, as you would need in the ED. ED programs do and you can then sit for the FNP exam.

I am glad you said this. PA's spend on average of 400 clinical hours in emergency medicine alone, compared to 400 hours total clinical hours in NP school.
On the other hand, if someone were to tell me they wanted to do community health or OB, I would say to go to NP school. They likely touch on that stuff more than PA students do.
Thanks for your diplomatic response and honesty.

Pat, RN, PA-C

[rnhunter]

I am currently working on my master's degree (ACNP). I believe that in all states NPs must be master prepared. A PA up until I would say the last fve years graduated with a BS degree. Now both professions the standard is a Master's degree. Another area you are mistaken is that NPs CANNOT practice independently. This is not true. NPs can and have opened there own practice. I recently read that I believe in New York city a group of FNPs opened there own practice together. It is LEGAL. NPs do NOT have to have their charts signed by a physcian. That varies from institution to institution. I agree that PAs have more clinical training and more classes than NPs do. This is an area that i believe that our profession needs to improve. Another error that i must point out is that PAs have 6-10 plus years of experience in healthcare. You are mistaken. It is strongly encouraged that they have smoe healthcare experience and/or shadow a PA prior to admission. Many go directly from HS to college to PA school. I went a girl who went on to PA school directly from college. All she did was shadow a PA prior to applying. I have a tremendous amount of respect for PAs. I do not believe that a PA is better than an NP nor do i believe that an NP is better than a PA. We are both considered midlevel practitioners. In some states they are considered physcian extenders.

[Bibeau1]

Mea culpa , you are right, "compassion and empathy are aquired traits. Many appologies, I have recently witnessed people in my profession who clearly are lacking in the traits that I admire ........

Originally Posted by patnshan

I was with you until you said that nurses are ahead in the compassion thing. That is individual, and is not LEARNED!
Otherwise, I agree with everything you said. NP's do need much more clinical time, or advanced practicum, as you call it. The amount I have seen involved in many NP programs I have researched is WAY too thin to even think about being ready to practice dependently, much less independently. That is where the gripe most PA's have with the NP movement arises from. We are trained much more in the clinical aspect especially, and still have no desire to be independent. I went to mursing school and practiced as a nurse, which gives me the experience to know that being a nurse is quite helpful, but no substitute.
I appreciate your most reasonable comment, except for the empathy stuff

Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

[Ventjock]

Originally Posted by Bibeau1

Mea culpa , you are right, "compassion and empathy are aquired traits. Many appologies, I have recently witnessed people in my profession who clearly are lacking in the traits that I admire ........

so true.....some of the nicest ppl i know are nurses, while at the same time some ppl who i would swear are the incarnation of the anti-Christ are nurses....lol

empathy is aquired not something learned in school

this goes for all medical professions, NP, PA, MD, DO, RN, RT.......