[prairienp]

Originally Posted by core0

As far as NPs they are mostly looking for the PhD which limits the job market. This is one driver for the DNP (at least from my understanding). At least locally the NP instructors don't take a heavy course load so some of the tuition goes to subsidize their research.

Graduate education is a very complex topic. There are some schools that make a frightening amount of money off it (University of Phoenix comes to mind). Overall most of the programs break even or subsidize other graduate programs.

David Carpenter, PA-C

The PhD is the gold standard for any master's program faculty not in a medical school. Faculty degrees are compared to English and math. The DNP has not been considered on the same level at the PhD or IMHO should it. Research is an expectation for graduate faculty, as is grant writing and publications. This is where the rub happens, faculty who like clinical don't often have time for the academic requirements. Faculty who like research don't have time for the clinical requirements. Faculty in English or Math are not expected to see patients and maintain a clinical practice. The DNP is the clinical expert and not an academic. I suspect the majority of "state" nursing programs both undergraduate and graduate lose $$$$. The undergraduate program I was affiliated with was always on the chopping block as too expensive. Too many faculty for too few students. Not like a biology class with 300 students. Those clinical rotations are expensive.

[PMFB-RN]

Originally Posted by core0

As far as the degree issue, I think that the Masters is the appropriate degree. The knowledge is taught at the graduate level. The trick is to keep the certification competency based. There are a few schools that funnel a lot of PAs to underserved areas that are based at community colleges. It would be a shame to lose those programs that really go back to the roots of the PA profession. That being said there are at least two states that require a Masters to practice so that is probably the future. (the cynic in me sees the higher $$$$ for graduate school as the motivating force).

David Carpenter, PA-C

*** The cynic in my agrees with the cynic in you I wouldn't have a problem with masters as the appropriate degree, IF those with master were paid commiserate with their education. From what I can see in the nursing and PA fields they are not. Masters prepared PAs and nurses don't make much more than the associates degree prepared RN, or for that matter my buddy with an AA degree in golf course management, or those with AA in mortuary science (probably the second best deal in education after the ADN) or those with AAs in tech fields. In my community college's graduate report the highest paid graduates are those from the stone and brick masons program. They average $90K/year. Seems to me that in order to make a masters degree pay one needs to make over $100K, or at least that's what it would take to make it pay for me.
I am dead set against the DNP idea as entry level for NPs and CRNAs. I think that the DPT and similar are silly.

[prairienp]

I have started to note a disturbing trend between NPs and PAs. Over the past 6 months I have had several PAs who happen to be in the same clinic as a couple of NP students become more and more critical of the NP education. Specifically these FNP students don’t have enough clinical in the hospital and ED like “they” did, thus making their educational process inadequate. At first I attributed this attitude to these PAs as either ignorance or jealousy. As I investigated further and started “lurking” on the PA forum I found this attitude as a recurrent theme amongst PAs who post and discuss (criticize) NPs and NP education. Has anyone else noted this? I have not noted the same consistency among my NP peers being critical of the PA education. I have noted several negative PA posts on this forum from NPs (usually new NPs or students), but they are usually quickly corrected by Siri or another reasonable member of the forum (CoreO). I have also noted when a NP speaks up in the PA forum they are quickly stomped on, and reminded that the PA forum is for PAs. Am I seeing this issue with rose colored glasses?

[caldje]

I think it all depends on how the NP approaches the situation. NPs certainly are welcomed on the PA forum. But, as you know, there has been a long history of NPs fighting against PAs in much bigger battles than a silly forum post. Things like getting Rx privaleges in ohio, etc. So, I think the issue is alive and well there... because NPs prevent PA schools from being opened up, and i have often heard plenty of misinformation being spread, not only on forums.

I DO think, though, that we should all be more willing to take the people.. who have enough interest to spend time on other's forums, and educate them in a non antagonistic way regarding our beliefs and where we are coming from. I don't think a post, pointing fingers, does any good at all. Nobody wastes their time somewhere if they arent trying to learn and its sad to not take that obvious opportunity and do well with it INSTEAD of trying to point fingers.

[Atl_John]

Okey so after reading all of these pages. I think I have an idea about what NP/PA's can do can't do compared to one another. But then again the posts went all over the place so I'm not quite sure. Just to make sure I have this right. Basically, there isn't anything a NP/PA can do that their counterpart can't do interms of procedure. Is that correct?

[core0]

Originally Posted by Atl_John

Okey so after reading all of these pages. I think I have an idea about what NP/PA's can do can't do compared to one another. But then again the posts went all over the place so I'm not quite sure. Just to make sure I have this right. Basically, there isn't anything a NP/PA can do that their counterpart can't do interms of procedure. Is that correct?

Generally they are the same. NPs are going to be limited by what their state nursing act says. PAs are going to be limited by what their supervising physician can do. Both may be limited by hospital credentialing.

David Carpenter, PA-C

[kim319]

For our readers it is important to correct at least a portion of some misinformation concerning admission into graduate nursing programs as stated, "A BSN is NOT always required to get into a NP program. Plenty of 2 yr RNs go on to NP school as well". This is absolutely not true. One must have a BSN to get into graduate nursing school. Period. ASN's have never and will never "leap" into any graduate nursing program without that BSN degree whether they had to 'bridge' it with another degree or not, they still HAD to earn a BSN before entering the graduate nursing program. Hope this clears up this misconception for others.

We are all working together to provide the highest quality, cost-effective healthcare we are able to for the healthcare consumer, i.e., your family and friends, my family and friends etc. Whether you're a physician with many years of training or a PA or NP, we all have the same goal and it's important to not lose sight of this fact.
Thank you.

[jzzy88]

Actually for some MS in nursing programs like UCSF don't require a BSN in particular in order to get into the masters program. But a bachelors degree is always required for admission to the masters programs. There are also direct entry programs that require a bachelors degree with no prior nursing experience.
J

[sirI]

This is absolutely not true. One must have a BSN to get into graduate nursing school. Period. ASN's have never and will never "leap" into any graduate nursing program without that BSN degree whether they had to 'bridge' it with another degree or not, they still HAD to earn a BSN before entering the graduate nursing program. Hope this clears up this misconception for others.

This is not exactly true.

As pointed out above, some students do not attain a baccalaureate degree in the course of their ADN-MSN studies in some programs. Graduates will earn an MSN in the graduate area of study they pursue.

And, not all programs bestow the BSN in their programs before conferring the MSN.

[MSADN]

The University of Southern Mississippi does not require or award a BSN in their RN-MSN program. The following directly quoted from the site (http://www.usm.edu/nursing/ . Click on Masters of Science in Nursing, then scroll down) :

"The RN to MSN is an accelerated program which allows qualified registered nurses to take a specified number of upper division nursing courses and move directly to graduate courses in a chosen specialty. Students in this program do not receive a BSN."