[Ventjock]

Originally Posted by SusanJean

1. Some states do allow NP's to have solo practices. I live in one of them.
2. "PA students ALWAYS have some kind of professional certification prior to becoming PAs. "
ABSOLUTELY FALSE!! More and more schools are accepting new college graduates. They might require some "clinical experience" but there is no across the board requirement for a professional certification.
Given the responsibility of the profession, there should be...

I think the NP/PA debate is useless, but incorrect info is harmful.

SJ

Yes, more and more colleges are accepting new college grads, but if you look at the entering class, look just how many of those actually got in with jsut the 90 hrs or BS degree with no experience. Even the traditional PA programs accept most PA students with about 3-4 years experience in healthcare. On top of 3.4-3.6 GPA with premed science courses...but then there are programs like at Stanford, UC-Davis and MEDEX which look more at experience (like NP programs)....look at the website for Stanford Primary Care Associate Program...I think its great (only if it were longer, only 15 months, better if it was 24-36 months)
http://pcap.stanford.edu/ if you're an RN and you complete the program you can either test to be a NP or a PA, if you're not an RN then you will take the PA exam.........

according to the website
"The Primary Care Associate Program offers students a 15-month curriculum that combines the traditional concepts of both physician assistant and nurse practitioner training. This reflects the program philosophy that no functional distinction in practice exists between these two types of primary health care professionals."

these two professions are very similar in the end and serve as physician extenders and ultimately are there to serve the needy.

[NurseFirst]

Originally Posted by ramiro_ac

Yes, more and more colleges are accepting new college grads, but if you look at the entering class, look just how many of those actually got in with jsut the 90 hrs or BS degree with no experience. Even the traditional PA programs accept most PA students with about 3-4 years experience in healthcare. On top of 3.4-3.6 GPA with premed science courses...but then there are programs like at Stanford, UC-Davis and MEDEX which look more at experience (like NP programs)....look at the website for Stanford Primary Care Associate Program...I think its great (only if it were longer, only 15 months, better if it was 24-36 months)
http://pcap.stanford.edu/ if you're an RN and you complete the program you can either test to be a NP or a PA, if you're not an RN then you will take the PA exam.........

according to the website
"The Primary Care Associate Program offers students a 15-month curriculum that combines the traditional concepts of both physician assistant and nurse practitioner training. This reflects the program philosophy that no functional distinction in practice exists between these two types of primary health care professionals."

these two professions are very similar in the end and serve as physician extenders and ultimately are there to serve the needy.

The reason "Stanford's" PA program is 15 months is because, as they state, they require substantial prior health care experience to get in. "Stanford's" program is actually run through a local community college, Foothill College, and the credits are given thru Foothill, not Stanford.

NurseFirst

[zenman]

Originally Posted by susanna

What do you mean antiquated medical model? Do you mean the nursing model?

No, the medical model. If a physicist were to attend a medical convention, he'd think he was thrown back into the stone age.

[zenman]

Originally Posted by PA-C in Texas

Anyway, PA's and NP's can do a lot more for themselves when they work together instead of trying to tear the other profession down. There's plenty work to go around.

That's true, but we can discuss the differences. Good luck in school.

[KrisRNwannabe]

Right about former experience. at the colleges I have looked at in michigan, they wanted you to have a degree. any degree. I wish I would have known this. I might have gone the PA route. since I already had a BS degree. I never realized they were master's degree program. around here i have noticed they are 2 years full time.

[acutecarenp]

Zenman,

If I ever make a concious decision to grow up....I want to be just like you!

[zenman]

Originally Posted by acutecarenp

Zenman,

If I ever make a concious decision to grow up....I want to be just like you!

No one should ever have to grow up!

[Tony35NYC]

I know there will probably be a tomato throw after I say this, but I don't understand why there are so many contentious debates about the differences between NPs and PAs. At the hospital where I work, many of the physicians work with both NPs and PAs. Both do pretty much the same things from what I have observed and they also make about the same amount of money from what I've heard.

As an RN-to-be I admit I am partial to APNs, and I hope to become one someday. But I just want to say that even though state laws say that PAs must be supervised by an MD, that doesn't necessarily mean that the MD is always present and looking over the PA's shoulder and signing off on every little thing the PA does. From what I've seen in the hospital, the MDs give the PAs a lot of autonomy, and many times the MDs don't involve themselves in cases that the PA's are managing except for a general patient status report, or if the case is too complicated for the PA to handle on his/her own. I don't understand why the dependent relationship between an PA and an MD is seen by some people as a negative thing. Chill out, people! NP or PA---Its just a job, and at the end of the day, everybody is accountable to somebody else---even the all mighty physician.

[SusanJean]

Originally Posted by Tony35NYC

I know there will probably be a tomato throw after I say this, but I don't understand why there are so many contentious debates about the differences between NPs and PAs. At the hospital where I work, many of the physicians work with both NPs and PAs. Both do pretty much the same things from what I have observed and they also make about the same amount of money from what I've heard.

As an RN-to-be I admit I am partial to APNs, and I hope to become one someday. But I just want to say that even though state laws say that PAs must be supervised by an MD, that doesn't necessarily mean that the MD is always present and looking over the PA's shoulder and signing off on every little thing the PA does. From what I've seen in the hospital, the MDs give the PAs a lot of autonomy, and many times the MDs don't involve themselves in cases that the PA's are managing except for a general patient status report, or if the case is too complicated for the PA to handle on his/her own. I don't understand why the dependent relationship between an PA and an MD is seen by some people as a negative thing. Chill out, people! NP or PA---Its just a job, and at the end of the day, everybody is accountable to somebody else---even the all mighty physician.

Nothing to throw Tony, just agreement that there need not be so much debate. We are all part of the same health care system/team.
I think that there is confusion because people don't understand exactly what PA's do (when I told one MD I was enrolled in PA school, he thought it was MA, the 12 mo program) and also, that there is no consistency state-to-state. I have spoken w/ PA's in some states where a doctor must see and review pt. status before release. Other states, a sit down w/ the PA q 6 mo to review a few charts is within the realm of the law (and comfort of the dr/PA.) The key is the relationship between the dr/PA.
Having said all that, I finally decided that I did not want to work that route and am now in BSN program w/ goal as NP. For me, while it will take more time, it there are other benefits - I agree more w/ the nursing model than I do w/ the medical model. But that is just MHO -- and I have 20 yrs in the medical field.
Ironically, I didn't consider nursing before PA school because I had no familiarity w/ the nursing model, and the diversity that is available to nurses now days. Poor marketing? I've seen where they are used in the business world, but that is where I am running from.
SJ

[Bibeau1]

Hi, I will be graduating from graduate school with a msn /FNP. I always thought there was no difference between the NP role and a PA role , But there are many.
One of my preceptors is a PA. She has been a great teacher and role model. We have compared education and this is what we have concluded.
PA's do have more actual clinical time then NP's . The focus of an NP program is academics because they feel we are already nurses. That I believe is our short coming. I really feel there should be more focus on actual practicums and less on the profession at hand , ( but that's my opinion ).
NP's, on the other hand, bring our compassion , & our hands on in patient care that ONLY an experienced nurse can bring. our caring touch, the fact that we listen is most valuable in a time when time with a patient is so very limited.
I want you to look at the how the PA's interact with patients as compared to a NP. Any one can function clinically , but compassion and empathy are clearly a nurses domain.

Originally Posted by jstuben

Hello. I am considering NP and PA school. I have a few years of experience as an ED Tech in a Level 3 Trauma Center in California (busy, but not too intense). Our ED is staffed with PA's no NP's.

I have a few questions about clinical differences between NP's and PA's. I know that PA's seem to have a great ability to work in surgery specialites like ortho, neuro, peds, and cardio surgery. They do pre and post surgery exams, order interpret tests, and prescibe meds (at least in 47-49 states). Are there any NP's on this forum who do this? Are there any in California who can comment?

Second. I know that most PA schools have a much longer clinical component than do NP schools. I have been told it is because NP's already have so much clinical experience as nurses. But can you really compare the two? In our ED, the nurses are not making differential diagnoses, determining etiology of disease, etc. etc., they are monitering the pt's overall state and response to the treatment ordered by the Physician (or sometimes PA). Therefore, does this experience compare to the rigorous training PA's get in diagnosing?

Part of my interest in medicine is the actual procedures themselves. I want to do chest tubes, central lines, suturing, first assistant surgery, etc. etc. Are there any NP's out there who are doing this?

Finally, I know some people (including some nurses) who deride the "nursing diagnosis" concept. Can anyone offer up a brief rationale for how nursing diagnoses are of value to an NP in clinical practice?

Thank you very much!