[wjf00]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

1. The freedom to work directly w/ supervisors on issues such as scheduling WITHOUT being pigeon-holed by contractual rules.

2. The ability to advance on merit, to 'shine', as opposed to advancement by seniorty.

3. Unions entrench seniority. As a junior employee, you 'sell' some of your rights to more 'senior' employees. Even if you are the 'best fit' for a job, that's not relevant to seniority. Being off on holidays, weekends, first crack at the schedule: in order to get the maximum benefit of a union, I have to bed myself with the management - through the union - for more than a decade.

One of nursing's greatest assets is mobility: I can work anywhere. You have to trade that mobility for seniority in order for unions to be a distinct advantage.

4. Unions promote a confrontational atmosphere towards management. That makes 'working relationships' more rare.

5. Unions, just like hospitals, are subject to 'bad' management.

6. Unions use dues for political purposes. You have to 'sell' your political freedom. EVEN IF YOU OPT OUT of that portion of your dues going to a specific candidate, the union uses your mere membership as the collective means to gain influence. If that influence is against your individual desires, you've given something up.

7. The greatest gains in nursing over the last decade is NOT from unions; it's from individual nurses 'voting with their feet' en masse. The greatest issue facing hospitals is 'recruitment and retention'. Unions stiffle the real incentives and ground being made in this area BECAUSE a contract prevents such innovation.

8. Dues themselves deflate nursing salaries. If the union gets 80 bucks/month, that is an 80 dollar deflation in real wages.

9. Unions represent another layer of management with all the bureaucracy that entails.

'Begs the question' refers to the logical fallacy of a circular argument. I made no such circular argument. Your question didn't 'beg'.

I made no attack on unions. Don't bother to point out that NOT being in a union can have disadvantages. I never denied that. I SAID both unions and non-union environments involve trade-offs. EACH have their advantages, AND disadvantages.

As such, the chief test of the necessity of a union is IF the advantages of being in one OUTWEIGHS the disadvantages. And, vice-versa.

Your post points outs out a SPECIFIC circumstance where the advantages of unionizing would outweigh the disadvantages. I believe I said that. That is not always the case.

It's simply biased propaganda to suggest that unions are an all-encompassing panacea with NO downsides. OF COURSE THE SAME WOULD BE TRUE IF THAT ARGUMENT WERE MADE FOR NON-UNION ENVIRONMENTS. I never said otherwide.

~faith,
Timothy.

I am sorry you are so misinformed of the facts. I will be happy to add some facts to your listing.
1. I can work very directly with my manager, and have on many occassions. But what I can't do is make a sweetheart deal for myself at the expense of a co-worker.
2.I can under my current CNA contract advance to staff Nurse III or Staff Nurse IV. I do this by submitting my request and qualifications to a committee of peers. Peer review determines the merit of my request, not doing personal favors for my supervisor.
3. Seniority rules benefit the Hospitals as well. It prevents costly turnover. The last nonunion hospital I was at in Phoenix kept raising the pay for new grads. For three years in a row they paid more and more for new grads, all the while the RN's hired the year before were now paid less than the new grads. The turn-over was tremendous, requiring ever more new grads. At the same time the seasoned nurses who had homes or families that prevented them from leaving the area, were very resentful, and did little to help the new grads.
4. In fact the union contracts I have seen, provide multiple avenues for conflict resoloution. From PPC to Quality Forum and unit based committees, to arbitration and ADO forms. What will not happen is the "My way or the Highway" approach, which resolves nothing and promotes lingering discontent.
5. But unlike the 'bad management' you may work for. The 'bad apples' in unions are voted in, and if they fail to perform they are 'kicked to the curb'.
6. You can 'opt out', but be aware that the government has a profound impact on your practice. If you go your own way you have no chance against united hospital groups. Ratio's, lift teams and protection from mandated overtime will never happen if the hospital industry has the only political voice.
7. You need to read a contract. The whole idea is to improve retention. A contract is an 'agreement between the parties'. It is negotiated, not imposed unilaterally. The hospitals insist on incentives to retain nurses, and all the contracts I have seen reflect this. I have been in my currnet position 3 years. In that time not one nurse (in a unit with 130+ RN's) has left our hospital, that did not move out of the city or state. Some have moved to other specialties, but all those RN's saw the strong incentives in the contract to stay with the Hospital, and opted to do so.
8. I left a nonunion hospital in Phoenix, to move to Sacramento. I recieved a $30.00/hr + wage increase ( sorry, but no way that the cost of living is any where near that much higher here, in fact it is very similar). I could not care less about the dues... best bargain I ever got. Those dues monies and a whole lot more money are being used by my old hospital to replace me with a new grad.. and another... and another... I am sure the money that Phoenix hospital pays to retain all those recruiting agencies eats up far more than our union dues money.
9. If you are unhappy.. vote them out. But don't try that with your hospitals management.

[Cyberglen]

...and hope for the good graces of a benevolent leader. Without unions, working people in this country wouldn't have a little something called "the weekend" (which has been eroded somewhat!). Unions are the reason we had a middle class, which is rapidly eroding. Without unions, no healthcare and no pensions.

Absent the collective power of the worker, you are entirely at the mercy of management.

Pensions, healthcare, and basic perks --brought to you care of the blood, sweat and tears of union members before you--- are under attack by multinationalist corporations that could care less about you. They will do everything within their power to deprive you of a living wage, whittle your benefits to nothing, and then, hand your job to foreign workers (god bless them) who will gladly do it cheaper.

I believe in the power of unions. It is the only power that you have, really. Declare yourself "anti-union" for some vague, politically correct reason, and watch how fast you put every American on this forum out of a job.

[JessicRN]

If is because of the MNA (MA UNion)
we are making $50/hr base pay with a $7.00 shift diff.
We have a pension instead of paying social security after 30 years and working to decrease it to 20 years like law enforcement
We have full health coverage after 10 years of employement
We are working under the same safe staffing as California
We are working 36 hours full time and 12 hour shifts
We are not being forced to use our own hospitals MD's or pay a very high price for our insurance
Nurses with 15 years+ only have to work every third W/e and those with 20+ do not have to work w/e at all
We are not employees at will in otherwords management cannot fire us on a whim
I have been a nurse for 30 years and I have worked in hospitals that were and were not unionized and believe me I vote for the union. It is true though that the union does have negatives in that it favors longevity instead of skill and qualification and education and seniority. But the pros have it

[jeolsz]

A long time ago I worked in a hospital that brought in a union in hopes of better wages and benefits for the RN's that were working there. What I found was people I had been working with for years, taking sides against each other, which left a bad taste in my mouth. I always felt that as a professional, I had knowledge and skills that I could offer at many health care facilities and I didn't need someone else looking after my best interests. I felt the Union got in the way of many opportunities because of seniority ( a nurse would get the job not based on the quality of his/her work, but on the length of time employed). I felt a strain between employee and management and I also didn't want to be told to go out and strike, when I wasn't convinced of what the union was fighting for. I always felt that if I didn't like where I was working, I could go elsewhere and I still feel the same today. If I didn't have anything to offer and had no job skills or education, unions might help, but with being an educated profesional, I don't feel I need that kind of help.

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by Cyberglen

...and hope for the good graces of a benevolent leader. Without unions, working people in this country wouldn't have a little something called "the weekend" (which has been eroded somewhat!). Unions are the reason we had a middle class, which is rapidly eroding. Without unions, no healthcare and no pensions.

Absent the collective power of the worker, you are entirely at the mercy of management.

Pensions, healthcare, and basic perks --brought to you care of the blood, sweat and tears of union members before you--- are under attack by multinationalist corporations that could care less about you. They will do everything within their power to deprive you of a living wage, whittle your benefits to nothing, and then, hand your job to foreign workers (god bless them) who will gladly do it cheaper.

I believe in the power of unions. It is the only power that you have, really. Declare yourself "anti-union" for some vague, politically correct reason, and watch how fast you put every American on this forum out of a job.

The demise of unions in this country are the reason that pensions, benefits, job protection, have gone the way of the wind. With no workplace protecion the middle class worker is thrown to the wolves known as multi national corporations, globalization, illegal immigrants, etc. You get the picture.

Anti union workers who believe what their employers tell them about how "bad unions are", have their head in the sand.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[Ruby Vee]

I've worked in both union and non-union hospitals, and have found that for the most part, nurses get a better deal in the union hospitals. (Or in a hospital that is struggling to fight off a union -- however the "good deal" tends to evaporate as soon as management feels comfortable that the threat of a union is a thing of the past.

I worked for 3 years in a great place -- a union hospital. Nurses got great pensions and could retire after 20 years. Scheduling was fair, there were no "sweetheart deals" (unlike the non-union I'd worked at previously), mandatory overtime or deliberate short-staffing. The unit manager was a close friend of the union steward. It was a great place to work. I moved away (my husband was in the military) but kept in touch with some of my former co-workers. A few years after I left, the hospital successfully "busted" the union. Within a year, the great pensions were a thing of the past and a friend who was within two years of retirement suddenly had the rug pulled out from under her.

Given a choice, I'll take the union every time. Unions aren't perfect, but they beat the alternative!

[jeolsz]

Wow, Lindarn, I really don't think I have my head in the sand.. I have worked at many hospitals both union and non union and personally I like to fight my own battles. I've always felt and still do, that raises and promotions should go to the people who deserve them, based on merit and not on seniority. Why bother to work hard or think "out of the box", when this goes largely unnoticed at a unionized hospital. I've since left the hospital and persued work in the corporate world ( health insurance) .. You don't find too many unions out there and I've almost doubled my salary in less than 10 years and have a great pension. Go figure.

[Spidey's mom]

Originally Posted by jeolsz

Wow, Lindarn, I really don't think I have my head in the sand.. I have worked at many hospitals both union and non union and personally I like to fight my own battles. I've always felt and still do, that raises and promotions should go to the people who deserve them, based on merit and not on seniority. Why bother to work hard or think "out of the box", when this goes largely unnoticed at a unionized hospital. I've since left the hospital and persued work in the corporate world ( health insurance) .. You don't find too many unions out there and I've almost doubled my salary in less than 10 years and have a great pension. Go figure.

I agree with you. And want to follow in your footsteps.


steph

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by jeolsz

Wow, Lindarn, I really don't think I have my head in the sand.. I have worked at many hospitals both union and non union and personally I like to fight my own battles. I've always felt and still do, that raises and promotions should go to the people who deserve them, based on merit and not on seniority. Why bother to work hard or think "out of the box", when this goes largely unnoticed at a unionized hospital. I've since left the hospital and persued work in the corporate world ( health insurance) .. You don't find too many unions out there and I've almost doubled my salary in less than 10 years and have a great pension. Go figure.

But too often in non union hospitals, the promotions, and raises go to the managers, and administrations "pets", (aka known as "brown nosers"). There is no recognition or reward for employees who worked hard, came in when the unit was short, pitched in to help the bosses pet when they couldn't handle their assignments, were in "over there heads" in their assignments (again), and who were totally unqualified to be in the positions that they were in. But, they were the bosses pets and could no wrong. They always managed to get the big raise, recognition, etc, that was completely unearned.

At least in a union environment, EVERYONE gets a raise, and no one is left out, or given raises, and merit equally, not because of the favoritism from the boss.

I am glad that you work in the corporate world and are making double your salary. You won't find too many unions in the corporate world, but many company employees are wishing that they were unionized. Especially when their jobs are going over seas to foreign workers or illegal immigrants who make a fraction of what the American workers are making doing the same job.

You are a nurse, and have education and skills that are not easlily replaced by a cheap foreign worker in a corporate environment. Tell that to the MBA who just got laid off when his job when to India, and he had to train his replacement or he wouldn't have recieved the severance pay that he hopes will keep his family afloat until his wife gives birth to their second baby.

I am glad that you like to fight your own battles. I don't think that you would have won against the powerful health care corporations when they took over you hospital and fired everyone who had more than five years seniority at the facility.

As I have said in many other threads concerning anti union members, you have delusions of grandeur if you think you can fight and win against a major corporation. There is power in numbers. It has been proven time and time again.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[HM2Viking]

As for me I am a union man....

Mourn the dead and fight like H*** for the living-Mother Jones.....

New Grads in mental health are starting at 31/hr. in MN. States with a strong labor tradition tend to have better health care systems. A friend of mine was thinking about FLA until he learned about the 18/hr starting with no pension vs a job in MN.