[diveRN]

Originally Posted by ♪♫ in my ♥

Teachers are professionals and they have unions.
Airline pilots are professionals and they have unions.
Police officers are professionals and they have unions.
Firefighters are professionals and they have unions.
University professors are professionals and many of them have unions.

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.
Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.
Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.
Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?
University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.

Originally Posted by ♪♫ in my ♥

I can see some reasons not to join a union but 'professionalism' is not a valid one.

I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

[HM2Viking]

[quote=menetopali;2813139]

2) i don't recall anyone saying that you can't have the choice to join a union - only that they are a bad idea, not helpful to the profession, extort money from workers, destroy industries, impede response to changing conditions, protect the mediocre and dangerous. if that's a group you want to belong to, its your right to support such a thing; all i ask is that you be honest about the consequences of unions compared to professional associations.

quote]

Quite clearly you indicated in the following that:

A. TSA should never have been allowed to unionize, as a part of homeland security and the federal government such an arrangement is lunacy (yes that goes for all federal unions).

whole groups of workers should not have been allowed the option to form a union.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by ♪♫ in my ♥

.....

However, after nearly 20 years of unrepresented professional work (for both unionized and nonunionized companies) before entering nursing school, I've seen enough workplace abuses to have gone over to the other side.

The company abuses that I've seen outweigh the union abuses that I've seen.

I figure I have more power to create change in the union than I have to create change in the corporate board room and executive suites.

Exactly what others have said.....

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by diveRN

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.
Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.
Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.
Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?
University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.



I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

Most states designate public safety employees as essential. In other words they are forbidden from striking. In exchange a mechanism of binding arbitration for wage settlements is often put in place. I think most nurses would be quite happy to accept this designation for a similar deal. Hospitals won't accept this proposal because of increased settlement costs. (Arbitration tends to yield greater wage settlements for employees as the union presents professional cases that justify salary demands)

Nurses and teachers strike for more than wage and benefit reasons. The driving force is usually the desire to improve student and patient services.

MNA struck in MPLS/St Paul MN several years ago. Wages and benefits did play a part but the real issues were over safe staffing ratios. MNA won through collective bargaining what CNA gained legislatively in CA. MNA also advocated for MN nurses by getting the legislature to pass a law forbidding mandatory OT. Nurses can decline OT for reasons of safety r/t fatigue. This action benefited not only the members represented by MNA but also non represented members.

Taking a principled stand for students or patients is hardly unprofessional. If anything it represents the highest degree of professionalism.

[♪♫ in my ♥]

Originally Posted by diveRN

This thread is dying and so I'll do my part to let it.

Teachers go on strike and the students suffer. Unprofessional.
Airline pilots go on strike and the public at large suffers. Unprofessional.
Police officers go on strike and the public is endangered. Unprofessional.
Firefighters go on strike .. would you want the firehouse in your neighborhood closed down?
University professors go on strike and ... well, few people really notice.

If nurses go on strike, it goes against the fiber and grain of what nursing is all about - selflessness, caring, and helping others.

Unprofessional.



I'd pay money to hear you tell that to an acutely ill patient and their family staying in a hospital whose nurses are on strike.

Fin.

A teacher without a union contract gets fired because a vociferous and/or locally powerful parent doesn't like them -- too bad for the teacher.

An airline pilot gets fired because s/he can be replaced with a young one who works for 60% -- too bad for the gray-hair.

A police officer gets fired because s/he was making waves that the chief didn't like -- too bad for the ethical guy.

A firefighter gets fired because s/he is pushing too hard to bring in new, expensive equipment that would make the job safer but which the chief opposes -- too bad for him/her.

Any of the above gets fired to create space for a friend or family member to get hired -- too bad for not being connected.

A nurse gets fired for not taking s**t from an arrogant prick of a doc or for pushing too hard on how the hospital isn't complaint with their own infection-control policies -- too bad.

You see, all these people were working as at-will employees and weren't formally terminated for the stated reasons -- they were simply terminated for no cause at all. If only they'd had contracts that guaranteed due process.

I have personally seen similar stories carried out inside of companies for whom I've worked. As an operations manager, I even helped it happen because I had no real choice -- go along with the boss or be out of work in a bad economy with a sick child at home. If I had opposed the boss, the only difference was that I would've been walked out the door, too. Too bad that poor guy didn't have a contract. Did I leave as soon as I could find a way out? You bet I did. Did anything change in that f***ked up little place? Nope. They're still stumbling along screwing their employees and their customers alike. How they haven't yet gone under I simply can't fathom.

Unions are about much, much more than wages. They're about trying to bring some balance to a relationship in which the individual employee is at a decided disadvantage.

I spent many months working for a Chinese company in a Chinese building inside of a huge Chinese factory that was just one of many in a sprawling Chinese industrial area. Besides my presence, there was nothing Western about this gig.

What struck me most wasn't the willingness of the employees to work 12-hour days, 6 days per week. It wasn't the poverty that these employees lived in despite their worker's wages. It wasn't the thoroughly disgusting 'sanitation' conditions or food provided to these workers. It wasn't even the complete disregard that the management and my Chinese colleagues had for their safety (My colleagues were truly baffled and said, "I don't understand. If he gets hurt we will just get another worker. I can have 100 just like him here in the morning if you wish.")

No, what struck me most wasn't the commoditization of the workers by the company but rather the commodity views that the workers developed of themselves.

If you ever have the chance to work in an environment like that, you should try it. It was very enlightening.

As far as I can tell, unions are the only means that individuals have in order to avoid being treated as a commodity.

[♪♫ in my ♥]

Just today I read a couple of different threads here on AN where nurses were lamenting the unethical and/or unprofessional behavior of doctors, CNAs, or colleagues.

In each case, the poster said words to the effect of, "but there's nothing I can really do about it... " Also in each case, other nurses have chimed in with very appropriate suggestions but then added the codicil, "But be looking for another job... have your resume updated... have some savings..."

How absolutely jacked up is that? Keep your mouth shut or your job is in jeopardy.

The government can't (and really shouldn't) protect people except in the most egregious cases (and even then, make sure you file within the statute of limitations... What, you didn't find out 'til afterwards? Sorry..."

Nope, solidarity with the rank and file, I say. A standard contract with predictable and reasonable compensation, I say. Contractually required due process, I say.

[menetopali]

[quote=HM2Viking;2814332]

Originally Posted by menetopali

Quite clearly you indicated in the following that:



whole groups of workers should not have been allowed the option to form a union.

federal employees who by choosing to work for a government entity in a security environment have chosen to give up certain rights during their period of service. that group should be treated like the military (as should ICE and Border Patrol), or do you think unionizing the Marine Corps is a good idea too?

[menetopali]

federal employees who by choosing to work for a government entity in a security environment have chosen to give up certain rights during their period of service. that group should be treated like the military for the protection of all of us (as should ICE and Border Patrol), or do you think unionizing the Marine Corps is a good idea too? we are less safe because of union protectionism of mediocre and dangerous employees - the next time a terrorist kills a hundred plus people on a plane because of TSA failure to detect a threat you can bet the union rep will back up his extortion paying crony and well that's just too bad for the dead and their families. just like when overtime is restricted for the border patrol resulting in even less effective border control or because ICE couldn't effectively deploy agents thanks to civilian overtime rules and an illegal is released onto the streets, too bad for those killed by illegals but the union got their extortion money.

preventing school choice and home schooling is hardly in the interest of the student, it is only for the benefit of the union.

abandoning patients and assaulting nurses who pick up your abandonment isn't good for patients, it only benefits unions.

airline pilots are limited by statute to what age they can fly. the company didn't can him because of age, the FAA did (that would be a good reason for a professional organization to pressure congress, not for a union to act against an employer)

the police and firefighter examples are good examples of a poor relationship between employers and employees that unions frequently exacerbate and as public service occupations they both have political recourse. if you don't like how a public entity is run you can change it through political action instead of extortion.

nurses have a lot of clout to change hospitals through the JCAHO, CMS, and of course public disclosure of hazards. as a free individual you can choose where you want to work (unless of course it is a closed shop) and don't have to work in poor conditions. you always start your own company or change employers. i can say definitively that as an at-will nurse in a right-to-work state, when i say there is a safety problem, i'm taken very seriously. in contrast before i became a nurse i did temp work; on one job painting safety rails i was criticized for "working to fast" because "it makes us look bad", the next day i was 're-assigned' by the temp company to a job moving cars at an auction - my guess is the union didn't want anybody with a work ethic in their shop, making them look lazy. is that really what you want for nursing, protection of the mediocre and dangerous?

the "contracts that guarantee due process" tie the hands of employers and prevent hiring the best and brightest in favor of the most senior and family/friends of the union bosses and they make it almost impossible to fire a bad employee - taking years to go through the process. the union has no real interest in positive performance, only getting their cut - again look at teachers who are paid to sit around all day doing nothing because it is cheaper to put them in the rubber room (in nyc) until they quit and paying their full pay and benefits than to actually go through the hassle of firing them. all that wasted money ($40 million annually in payroll alone, forget about substitutes or teacher replacement costs) could have been spent on classroom needs, teacher raises, and infrastructure but instead, thanks to the union, it is used to pay bad teachers or dangerous teachers not to teach thanks to the unions.

[Shaggyb2000]

Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy by Thomas Sowell is a book every person, ESPECIALLY nurses, should read. It will explain in clear and absolute terms why the individual is better off making his own decisions for himself rather than having an enlightened liberal make decisions for him whether the person likes it or not.

[herring_RN]

The United States holds elections so all citizens have a say.

Nurses cannot allow profit driven corporation to dictate unsafe patient care to nurses.

And one person cannot improve patient care. Nurses working together have done so much.
At best one nurse can negotiate a safer assignment for him or herself. Then the patients of the rest of the staff suffer from insufficient nursing staff.

Regarding strikes, this has been discussed before.
http://allnurses.com/forums/f323/que...-239424-2.html