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Curious - Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union



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  #101  
Old May 13, 2008, 11:02 AM
diveRN (Male)
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by ♪♫ in my ♥ View Post
...

It's just bad tax policy.
Ok, a reasonable arguement.

What would you consider to be "good" tax policy?

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  #102  
Old May 13, 2008, 11:18 AM
diveRN (Male)
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by stevielynn View Post

As to union membership - I side with the "no" folks and for all the reasons already given. (just to stay on topic ).

steph

I appreciate your posts and have a lot of respect for you... not only for running your own thing, but making a go of it in an industry that's GOT to be a tough one to survive in.



As for the union thing, I think the political elements of this thread demonstrate pretty well who is for a union and who isn't. I think political ideology parallels the pro or anti union stance. For that reason, I think flushing out thoughts on tax breaks is good.

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  #103  
Old May 13, 2008, 11:46 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2006
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
This thread is starting to bore me. Was hoping to have an intelligent conversation because the mental exercise is good, but it sounds more and more like a broken record espousing the same ol' same ol'.
lololololol.....in my experience, more than a few years of living, this sort of statement is commonly made by someone who knows they have lost the arguement/debate...............years ago, we had a non union shop.....and low and behold they got a raise every time the union shop got one....hmmm

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  #104  
Old May 13, 2008, 11:51 AM
diveRN (Male)
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by morte View Post
lololololol.....in my experience, more than a few years of living, this sort of statement is commonly made by someone who knows they have lost the arguement/debate...............years ago, we had a non union shop.....and low and behold they got a raise every time the union shop got one....hmmm
Try reading the whole thread. I acknowledged a LONG way back that this thread (for me) is nothing more than a mental exercise and that nobody's mind is going to be changed.

Your worthy contribution is noted.

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  #105  
Old May 13, 2008, 11:57 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2006
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
Try reading the whole thread. I acknowledged a LONG way back that this thread (for me) is nothing more than a mental exercise and that nobody's mind is going to be changed.

Your worthy contribution is noted.
ah, the old "you dont have a clue" arguement.....I rarely if ever, comment without reading the thread.....YOU are the one who keeps coming back, and back, and back......i would guess you really do need to be right.....if you were only being bored, you would just not show up anymore.....no, you had to announce it, as if to denigrate those left ......another tactic i am familiar with......please do have a very nice day!

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  #106  
Old May 13, 2008, 12:34 PM
diveRN (Male)
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by morte View Post
ah, the old "you dont have a clue" arguement.....I rarely if ever, comment without reading the thread.....YOU are the one who keeps coming back, and back, and back......i would guess you really do need to be right.....if you were only being bored, you would just not show up anymore.....no, you had to announce it, as if to denigrate those left ......another tactic i am familiar with......please do have a very nice day!
Yep, back ... and back ... and here I am again. If by lost, you mean I failed to persuade anyone, I admit it ... and I'm just as right as Viking and Music.

The thing that I've learned in my experience with Internet forums and living, which is more than a few years, I've found that trying to "win" an Internet argument is futile, but the exchange of worthwhile ideas is thoughts isn't.

'preciate your input.

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  #107  
Old May 13, 2008, 12:38 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Well now this is a topic that I could quite litterally write a book about. Wait a minute, I tried and my wife told me that if I were to publish it I'd probably end up being shot.
I've been nursing for over 12 years now and I've yet to have any possitive experiences with union officials with three different labour organizations. Here's just a snap shot of a few of the countless reasons why.
1) I work for a municipal employer that has male dominated bargaining units like police and fire which are 100% Full Time while our bargaining unit is approximately 70% part time. I put in a discrimination grievance and the union dropped it because it didn't want to spend the money in arbitration.
2) The emplpoyer was looking at laying off over 100 nurses and converting those possitions to nurses aide possitions which was about a 13% wage reduction while they at the same time gave the fire fighters a 13% wage increase. Union officials allowed this to happen inspite of the outrage from the members.
3) We had a nurse manager who was the equivalent of a terrorist and routinely harassing the nursing staff including violating various human rights. Her actions were grieved, but the union president stated, "we can't damage employer union relations."
4) The employer decided to change our nursing scheduals which was a complete violation of three sections of our collective agreement. Nursing staff were furious and at one point a petition against the union officials was started by me and was gaining high momentum. The local union president was furious with this challenge to his so-called authority and sent me a threatening letter. I even challenged it to the head national union office because the local officials were even going against the Constitution of the union itself. I was told that the decision regarding nursing scheduals was made by the leadership of the union which is the ultimate authority in the union (gee I thought the members were the ultimate authority). Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this sound like a dictatorship?

I can describe countless other personal examples. But, I'll look at the bigger picture to give a perfect example of how useless many unions have become. According to Statistics Canada, 82% of the nurses in Canada are represented by a Labour organization, or some form of a collective agreement. Yet, in some jurisdictions in Canada, nurses and other health care workers are experiencing a level of violence three times higher than police officers. The research on violence was done by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation when they researched compensation board claims of various occupations.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/...nce060424.html

Using this as an example, why aren't these labour organizations doing anything about it when there's such high level of so-called representation?

If you want to examine Bullying in the workplace, you need not look any further than the book The Bully at Work: what you can do to stop the hurt and reclaim your dignity on the job by Gary Namie & Ruth Namie.
On page 116 it states: "Unions, like employers, are organizations. They have agendas and goals that may or may not meet your needs. As incredible as this sounds, unions are not automatically good at giving unconditional support."
On Page 118 it states: "There is no excuse for the only official employee advocates to be too busy to help employees who seek relief from horrendous workplaces."
Then on page 233 it states: "Regrettably, too many Targets report to us that their union fails them. Either the steward is a bully herself and hates the target or the steward fails to see any need to defend the Target in the absence of collective bargaining agreement (contract) language."

If these Labour officials actually did the job that they are paid to do, which is represent their members, then I would be very much in favour of unions and other labour organizations. Unfortunately based on personal experience and much of the research that has been done, labour organizations are becoming more and more useless. Many of them are viewing their members as nothing more than a source of stable revenue for themselves. Unfortunately this is ever so true in nursing because in various jurisdictions it's illegal for nurses to strike. Many of the labour organizations that allegedly represent those nurses exploit that reality and cash in on that stable source of revenue.

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  #108  
Old May 13, 2008, 01:53 PM
herring_RN's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Our nurses association was led by people who were managers and academics and didn't understand how downsizing, restructuring, and "patient focused care" was harmful to our patients. One reason was that they had not had a patient assignment since the shorter hospital stay and higher acuity became the rule.

So we staff and other direct care nurses ran for office and took over our association.
Thus we worked for safe staffing by acuity of which ratios are the floor, a whistleblower law, and increased slots in nursing programs.

Just having a union is not the answer. Labor laws provide a mechinism for direct care registered nurses to advocate for our patients even when the employer seems to be solely interested in the budget.

I am very happy for non union hospitals to keep their standards up and treat employees well as a way to avoid a union.
That is good unless the facility changes hands.

I do not always think that "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem"
Many fine nurses do their part by providing safe, effective, therapeutic, and compassionate care to their patients. That is all that is required.
But those who work for social justice and a healthy workplace enable them to do the good they do.


Last edited by herring_RN : May 13, 2008 at 01:59 PM.
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  #109  
Old May 13, 2008, 02:32 PM
diveRN (Male)
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by herring_RN View Post
...

Just having a union is not the answer. Labor laws provide a mechinism for direct care registered nurses to advocate for our patients even when the employer seems to be solely interested in the budget.

I am very happy for non union hospitals to keep their standards up and treat employees well as a way to avoid a union.
That is good unless the facility changes hands.

I do not always think that "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem"
Many fine nurses do their part by providing safe, effective, therapeutic, and compassionate care to their patients. That is all that is required.
But those who work for social justice and a healthy workplace enable them to do the good they do.
Well spoken.

I agree with 90% of what you say. However, here's the 10% I don't buy into completely.

But those who work for social justice and a healthy workplace enable them to do the good they do.
I don't think that unions enable all nurses to do the good they do. Unions MAY be good for some people, in some facilities and may contribute to better pt care, outcomes, etc... but in facilities that already have a handle on those things, unions are nothing more than an extra level of bureaucracy that, IMO, hinders pt care because the union then takes the focus off the patient and places it on the employee.

Social justice is relative to one's beliefs. That's an underlying reason why I don't think it has any place in the work environment. Social justice should be enacted through effective and enforced labor law, not threats and mob tactic.

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  #110  
Old May 13, 2008, 02:45 PM
herring_RN's Avatar
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Re: Reasons Why YOU Won't Join A Union

Originally Posted by diveRN View Post
Well spoken.

I agree with 90% of what you say. However, here's the 10% I don't buy into completely.

I don't think that unions enable all nurses to do the good they do. Unions MAY be good for some people, in some facilities and may contribute to better pt care, outcomes, etc... but in facilities that already have a handle on those things, unions are nothing more than an extra level of bureaucracy that, IMO, hinders pt care because the union then takes the focus off the patient and places it on the employee.

Social justice is relative to one's beliefs. That's an underlying reason why I don't think it has any place in the work environment. Social justice should be enacted through effective and enforced labor law, not threats and mob tactic.
Of course there are health facilities where a nurse can care for patients without the direct involvement of a union.
I was thinking of the non union hospitals where a nurse could be assigned up to 15 patients. Thanks to the social activism of many people led by a nurses association and union those nurses have fewer patients. Therefore they have more time to provide the care they do.

My belief is that too many patients per nurse is unjust to both patients and nursing staff.

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