[movingtoNYC]

does anyone have copies of NYSNA contracts? we are moving to NY in six months and my wife (a seven year NICU vetran) will only work union.

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by teeituptom

I love stats shown in surveys. Surveys on these stats are always so messed up. Depending on where they are completed, at work vs elsewhere. Depending whether your in a good mood or not, whather your drinking coffee or a brew. Also stat surveys are specifically designed by whoever to get the results they can get for whoever it is paying the bills. So if the Union pays for a stat survey to use. Of course it will be slanted to get the results they want. Very scientific, very slanted.

I base my observations on what Ive seen over my career and my life.

I agree ... even though I'm pro union, I would never rely on the AFL's stats ... too much bias. But, that's why I think the Bureau of Labor Statistics data is so compelling ... no bias there, especially with a Republican administration.

And that data does show year after year that union workers make more money than non-union workers.

[Beggar♂]

I'm about to become a student nurse (direct entry MSN) after 16 years as an engineer at various companies, large and small. I have never been represented by a union and I was anti-union for a long time. I worked in a union shop and was dismayed by the attitudes of some of the unionites and the silly rules that they foisted upon us.

Now in my 40's, I will be looking for a unionized employer when I graduate. Unions are the only thing preventing a variety of work-place abuses. In an "at-will" employment state such as California, employers can bounce you with no reason at all.

People find themselves bounced:

• To create space for the boss's friend or loved one
• Because they speak up about safety or ethical issues
• Because the boss or the boss's kid or the boss's wife or the boss's girlfriend or... just doesn't like them
• They get too old or too fat or... for the boss's image of his/her workforce
• They're earning too much money and can be replaced with a cheaper, younger model. (Keep a very small group of senior folks and cycle the rest out for folks 5 years into their careers...keep 'em and work 'em 10 years and then cycle 'em out)

I've seen all of the above. The last one is the most pernicious and is very common in the engineering field.

When I was a hotshot young engineer, I railed against the union and was adamant in my desire to negotiate my own deal rather than being saddled with the "dead weight." My bro-in-law, the hotshot young firefighter (in the union) just shook his head and laughed at my naivite (sp?). As the years have progressed and I've seen the benefits of the union for him and the teachers in my life and my buddy who's an airline pilot, I've realized the folly of my views.

Companies will only treat their employees as well as they have to in order to keep themselves sufficiently staffed. They will always look to save money on the backs of the employees. The only defense that most people have is being part of a group.

Yeah, unions have a lot of their own problems.

• Yes, they do let incompetent folks keep their jobs in favor of better people. (My wife's a teacher and we've seen way too many incompetent teachers who keep their jobs only because of the union contracts.)
• Yes, they siphon off cash from both sides.
• Yes, they are political animals that often end up serving their own purposes rather than those of their constituents.
• Yes, they will sometimes destroy an organization by seeking too much or being intransigent.
• Yes, they tend to create an adversarial "us vs. them" atmosphere

On the other hand, they would not exist if they weren't needed. Don't kid yourself for one millisecond that worker abuse would not skyrocket in the absence of the unions.

To me, unions are a necessary evil, and representation will dictate to which places I will apply. Fortunately, the best employers around here also happen to be unionized.

OK, Beggar♂, off the soap box...

[Sheri257]

Originally Posted by Beggar♂

Yes, they are political animals that often end up serving their own purposes rather than those of their constituents.

True but, sometimes you're pleasantly suprized. I'm a member of SEIU. Not my favorite union by any means. I can't stand their position on illegals, among other things.

But, I work for California Corrections and recently the legislature passed a bill to spend $8 billion on new prisons. Originally, a large chunk of that money was supposed to go to new private prisons ... but SEIU stopped it.

I'm sure an outsider would say ... there goes the union protecting state employee jobs. Private prisons do the job much better than government, they save taxpayers money, etc.

But it's not true. I've actually worked for a private prison ... it was absolutely horrible. Completely unsafe, staff was routinely dealing drugs or sleeping with the inmates. This stuff happens at all prisons but at the private prison it was much, much worse. About 5 percent of the staff is compromised at state run facilities, but with private prisons at least 30 percent of the staff is compromised.

The department had to set up a special task force to investigate employees at the private prisons because it is so bad.

And as far as the taxpayers saving any money, I just didn't see it. The state pays the contractors $24 an hour for guards but, the company only pays the guards $9 an hour and pockets the rest so ... you can imagine what kind of employees you get at $9 an hour. The inmates get away with all kinds of stuff in these private prisons.

I was under constant pressure to work alone with inmates without a guard because they were always so short staffed. I was under constant pressure NOT to do routine health screenings (including psych) because the company only made money by keeping the inmate census high ... and that meant releasing everybody into general population without even glancing at their medical file.

Needless to say, a guard got his jaw broken because a psych inmate who wasn't properly screened and released into general population went nuts (thankfully not on my watch).

So, IMO, this was a case where the union actually did their job but, I'm sure the public wouldn't understand it unless they actually worked at one these places.

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by Beggar♂

I'm about to become a student nurse (direct entry MSN) after 16 years as an engineer at various companies, large and small. I have never been represented by a union and I was anti-union for a long time. I worked in a union shop and was dismayed by the attitudes of some of the unionites and the silly rules that they foisted upon us.

Now in my 40's, I will be looking for a unionized employer when I graduate. Unions are the only thing preventing a variety of work-place abuses. In an "at-will" employment state such as California, employers can bounce you with no reason at all.

People find themselves bounced:

• To create space for the boss's friend or loved one
• Because they speak up about safety or ethical issues
• Because the boss or the boss's kid or the boss's wife or the boss's girlfriend or... just doesn't like them
• They get too old or too fat or... for the boss's image of his/her workforce
• They're earning too much money and can be replaced with a cheaper, younger model. (Keep a very small group of senior folks and cycle the rest out for folks 5 years into their careers...keep 'em and work 'em 10 years and then cycle 'em out)

I've seen all of the above. The last one is the most pernicious and is very common in the engineering field.

When I was a hotshot young engineer, I railed against the union and was adamant in my desire to negotiate my own deal rather than being saddled with the "dead weight." My bro-in-law, the hotshot young firefighter (in the union) just shook his head and laughed at my naivite (sp?). As the years have progressed and I've seen the benefits of the union for him and the teachers in my life and my buddy who's an airline pilot, I've realized the folly of my views.

Companies will only treat their employees as well as they have to in order to keep themselves sufficiently staffed. They will always look to save money on the backs of the employees. The only defense that most people have is being part of a group.

Yeah, unions have a lot of their own problems.

• Yes, they do let incompetent folks keep their jobs in favor of better people. (My wife's a teacher and we've seen way too many incompetent teachers who keep their jobs only because of the union contracts.)
• Yes, they siphon off cash from both sides.
• Yes, they are political animals that often end up serving their own purposes rather than those of their constituents.
• Yes, they will sometimes destroy an organization by seeking too much or being intransigent.
• Yes, they tend to create an adversarial "us vs. them" atmosphere

On the other hand, they would not exist if they weren't needed. Don't kid yourself for one millisecond that worker abuse would not skyrocket in the absence of the unions.

To me, unions are a necessary evil, and representation will dictate to which places I will apply. Fortunately, the best employers around here also happen to be unionized.

OK, Beggar♂, off the soap box...

Workplace abuse IS skyrocketing because of the demise of unions in this country over the last 40 years. Union membership is at an all time low in this country, especially since Ronald Reagan led the charge against unions when he fired all of the Air Traffic Controllers. It has been an undeclared war on unions ever since.

It is also evident in the flat pay, lack of, and cut off of benefits, the demise of defined pensions, etc. All due to the lack of union protection for employees.
JMHO, and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[teeituptom]

[quote=Beggar♂;2288238]].

Yeah, unions have a lot of their own problems.

• Yes, they do let incompetent folks keep their jobs in favor of better people. (My wife's a teacher and we've seen way too many incompetent teachers who keep their jobs only because of the union contracts.)
• Yes, they siphon off cash from both sides.
• Yes, they are political animals that often end up serving their own purposes rather than those of their constituents.
• Yes, they will sometimes destroy an organization by seeking too much or being intransigent.
• Yes, they tend to create an adversarial "us vs. them" atmosphere

On the other hand, they would not exist if they weren't needed. Don't kid yourself for one millisecond that worker abuse would not skyrocket in the absence of the unions.



I certainly agree with the above. But in my way I like unions. They get people to go on strike and I just dearly love strike busting pay.

[pickledpepperRN]

A UNION-BUSTING HABIT

The sisters who run St. Joseph Health System are often pro-labor—but apparently not at their hospitals

http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/a-...g-habit/27600/

[pickledpepperRN]

I agree with this nurse’s opinion-

In my opinion, your article regarding how the St. Joseph Health System intimidates employees about forming a union while pretending otherwise details an accurate synopsis of the “real world” at St. Joseph’s. I applaud you! Accolades!

My employment at St. Joseph Hospital in Eureka as an RN began many years ago. Had you said that I would support a union there, I would have laughed you off the block, as would all of my colleagues. I love our hospital and used to be proud of its accomplishments. I believe in our four core values: justice, dignity, excellence and service. What is at issue is how those four values are interpreted in working conditions for the average employee in any department.

As time marched on, deeply committed nurses (both to the community and the hospital) were unable to participate in solutions or even to be heard on issues of patient care and safety, and it became necessary to initiate contact with the California Nurses Association (CNA) and request assistance in organizing a union.

Our union battle was uphill every single step and every single minute. Our hospital hired the mighty Burke Group, to the tune of $1 million, to coordinate union-busting activity—which was often egregious in nature. My least favorite incident was hearing of a mandatory staff meeting in which a management team member discussed the potential rapes that would occur with union activity. Many staff members experienced episodes of intimidation as described in the article.

And yet, at the end of the road, it was the four core values—justice, dignity, excellence and service—that carried the day. Those values were manifested through 86 percent of the 250 staff members who said we needed union support to help our patients. At that time, it was the highest CNA “win” on record.

Moral of the story: Never underestimate an impassioned nurse. Don’t get in our way for patient advocacy!

We signed our first CNA contract on Nov. 10, 2003. CNA is a remarkable union because it is about a social movement, an advocacy campaign for patient care and safety. We can only address the staggering health-care needs as a united group of professionals.

In retrospect, I now realize that helping to form a union was the most important thing I could ever have done for my patients. My California RN license dictates that I be a patient advocate. It doesn’t suggest or imply. It mandates. Each time I renew my license, I must recommit to that mandate.

Thank you for your article and the light that it brings to this subject. Thank you for providing the forum for the dialogue that will ensue.

Lavon Divine-Leal, RN, BSN

Eureka

http://www.ocweekly.com/columns/letters/letters/27674/

[teeituptom]

Originally Posted by Sheri257

I agree ... even though I'm pro union, I would never rely on the AFL's stats ... too much bias. But, that's why I think the Bureau of Labor Statistics data is so compelling ... no bias there, especially with a Republican administration.

And that data does show year after year that union workers make more money than non-union workers.

Well I am non union certainly. If union workers make more than me, why are they striking. Because bottom line its always money.

I doubt if many make more than I do

[RPNinTO]

I have found unions to be good and bad personally.

I have seen them go in where places were not competitive money wise and those salaries went up!

They try to look out for your interests.

However,

It seems harder to get full time jobs, and things are based on seniority rather than work performance. You have some people in senior positions that are not working hard anymore but getting rewarded just the same...

I was doing staff relief for a place and was very well liked... so staff told me to apply directly( was at an agency) but with the unionization it is hard to get a job there....

I find that very frustrating