[workingforskies]

Originally Posted by wtbcrna

I am sorry. I don't like the idea of unions either. As I have said before at best unions are a two-edged sword. Ultimately, they will give the nurses a bad image for striking too much, they run up the costs of the hospital beyond resonable levels, unions at the end of the day are nothing more than a self-serving business whose salary is dependent on dues, and unions will do whatever they need to to protect their jobs. I would much rather give my support to my national nursing organization, and support national/state nurse-pt ratios & other initiatives. vs. having to support a union.

What an absurd observation from someone in the trenches. Health care costs are often quoted as going up 20% a year. Where is that money going? You can bet it is not going to the nurses. If it was, I could understand the thought of nurses taking some responsibility for the costs. But for now, I don't care. If investing more money into what I do means the CEO of my company has to fly his kids first class to Disney as opposed to taking the corporate jet, so be it.

Believe me, if I could, I would demand the dot.com dollars that the "e" professionals demanded and received in the late 90's when there was such a high demand for their services. As far as bankrupting a hospital, so be it if it happens. Our communities are getting sicker, and therefore, there will ALWAYS be a demand for our services.

[wtbcrna]

Originally Posted by workingforskies

What an absurd observation from someone in the trenches. Health care costs are often quoted as going up 20% a year. Where is that money going? You can bet it is not going to the nurses. If it was, I could understand the thought of nurses taking some responsibility for the costs. But for now, I don't care. If investing more money into what I do means the CEO of my company has to fly his kids first class to Disney as opposed to taking the corporate jet, so be it.

Believe me, if I could, I would demand the dot.com dollars that the "e" professionals demanded and received in the late 90's when there was such a high demand for their services. As far as bankrupting a hospital, so be it if it happens. Our communities are getting sicker, and therefore, there will ALWAYS be a demand for our services.

If you would take the time to go back and look at the problems that unions have caused in the U.S. as well as helped you would understand where that comment comes from. At what point is there enough benefits...? There are thousands of out of work people because their unions basically put them out of job. I am for cutting any CEOs salary, but over a large hospital system with thousands of nurses how far do really think that will go?
If you don't care if the hospital system goes bankrupt why not just go find a new job now, and what will happen to your pension if the hospital goes bankrupt?

[tulip928]

Originally Posted by Freedom42

Absolutely! Who wants a contract that spells out the exact terms of your employment when you can have the thrill of never knowing what your next raise will be or what benefits will be taken away from you without warning? I'm with you, Michael: Live on the edge! Why should nurses have dull, boring contracts that guarantee them pay, raises and benefits just like, oh, say, administrators and doctors?

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/nur...uk-273250.html

This article only got 4 comments when posted just recently.

Do they unionize in the UK? (I'm really wanting to know, I haven't looked into this)

Seems to me that this is what nursing can look forward to in the US with universal healthcare (socialized, government sponsored).

Looks like they spell out terms very well in the UK. I wonder how the UK reacted to the nurses reacting . . . Anyone know?

[Freedom42]

Originally Posted by wtbcrna

If you would take the time to go back and look at the problems that unions have caused in the U.S. as well as helped you would understand where that comment comes from. At what point is there enough benefits...? There are thousands of out of work people because their unions basically put them out of job. I am for cutting any CEOs salary, but over a large hospital system with thousands of nurses how far do really think that will go?
If you don't care if the hospital system goes bankrupt why not just go find a new job now, and what will happen to your pension if the hospital goes bankrupt?

And there you have it. If you want job security and a decent wage, you don't care about whether your hospital goes bankrupt. You've got an attitude problem. You're greedy.

Wtbcrna, you've offered us a lot of vague comments about why unions are bad, including that unions will give nurses a "bad image" for going on strike "too much." Care to back that up? How often do nurses' unions go on strike in this country? And when they do, how long do those strikes last? I'd be interested to see what you can find to support that claim. I'd also like to know what union puts nurses out of jobs.

I'm also curious as to whether the doctors at your hospital have personal service contracts. Why do you think that is?

[wtbcrna]

Originally Posted by Freedom42

And there you have it. If you want job security and a decent wage, you don't care about whether your hospital goes bankrupt. You've got an attitude problem. You're greedy.

Wtbcrna, you've offered us a lot of vague comments about why unions are bad, including that unions will give nurses a "bad image" for going on strike "too much." Care to back that up? How often do nurses' unions go on strike in this country? And when they do, how long do those strikes last? I'd be interested to see what you can find to support that claim. I'd also like to know what union puts nurses out of jobs.

I'm also curious as to whether the doctors at your hospital have personal service contracts. Why do you think that is?

There are dozens of articles on the internet r/t nurses striking some lasting a couple of weeks to one in Appalachians lasting months. I couldn't find an exact number from any source stating how many nursing stikes there have been.

I don't think any nursing union has caused any nurses to lose their jobs yet (at least I hope not). Unions have lost autoworkers and factory workers their jobs by the thousands. Do you really think that nursing unions are that much different? The nursing unions are using the exact same tactics as other unions to get what they want. Do you not think that the AHA won't lobby for more foreign nurses to come in to work for cheaper/non-union wages?

We consider ourselves professionals/public servants, but how many police officers, fire fighters, and physicians have gone on strike as much as we have lately? How long do you think we can maintain public support and continue to strike like this?

Let me elaborate on my background: I am an AD USAF nurse. My view is from the outside looking in (although I do occassionaly work prn when possible). I worry more about the public's perception of our nursing profession when all you see in the media is nurses' striking. Don't get me wrong there is some very valid reasons out there at some of these hospitals for striking, but we are not contracting these unions to come in one time to do a job and then leave. We are keeping these unions around, and that in my opinion is what will lead to problems. Unions need to justify their existence and to do that there needs to be strife/strikes etc.

Pros and Cons to unions: http://labor.about.com/od/unions/a/unionization_2.htm

[Freedom42]

Originally Posted by wtbcrna

There are dozens of articles on the internet r/t nurses striking some lasting a couple of weeks to one in Appalachians lasting months. I couldn't find an exact number from any source stating how many nursing stikes there have been.

I don't think any nursing union has caused any nurses to lose their jobs yet (at least I hope not). Unions have lost autoworkers and factory workers their jobs by the thousands. Do you really think that nursing unions are that much different? The nursing unions are using the exact same tactics as other unions to get what they want. Do you not think that the AHA won't lobby for more foreign nurses to come in to work for cheaper/non-union wages?

We consider ourselves professionals/public servants, but how many police officers, fire fighters, and physicians have gone on strike as much as we have lately? How long do you think we can maintain public support and continue to strike like this?

Let me elaborate on my background: I am an AD USAF nurse. My view is from the outside looking in (although I do occassionaly work prn when possible). I worry more about the public's perception of our nursing profession when all you see in the media is nurses' striking. Don't get me wrong there is some very valid reasons out there at some of these hospitals for striking, but we are not contracting these unions to come in one time to do a job and then leave. We are keeping these unions around, and that in my opinion is what will lead to problems. Unions need to justify their existence and to do that there needs to be strife/strikes etc.

Pros and Cons to unions: http://labor.about.com/od/unions/a/unionization_2.htm

I think it's a safe bet that you couldn't find out how often nurses' unions go on strike because it's uncommon. Yes, you can find dozens of articles on strikes -- if you want to go back over the past century. And while the strike in Appalachia was an exception, I've been able to find little evidence of what few strikes there have been lasting more than a few days, if that.

It's interesting that you say "unions have lost autoworkers and factory workers their jobs by the thousands." Come again? By doing what? Demanding a decent wage and benefits? Even GM -- the single largest buyer of health care insurance in this country -- doesn't blame the unions. It blames this country's lack of a national health plan for the fact that it has to add nearly $3,000 to the sticker price of every car. Why do you think Toyota decided to build its latest plant in Canada, where it will deal with unionized workers? Because the health care is already provided.

Do I think that nursing unions are that much different? I hope not. I see nothing wrong with expecting a decent wage, guaranteed benefits and fair treatment in exchange for my labor. Nursing isn't a sacrifice. It's a job.

And finally, I find it amusing -- at best -- that you bolster your anti-union argument by asking if I don't think the AHA will lobby for more foreign nurses to come here and work for less.

Yes, my friend, I certainly do. And that's exactly why I need a union. Who's protecting you?

[wtbcrna]

Originally Posted by Freedom42

I think it's a safe bet that you couldn't find out how often nurses' unions go on strike because it's uncommon. Yes, you can find dozens of articles on strikes -- if you want to go back over the past century. And while the strike in Appalachia was an exception, I've been able to find little evidence of what few strikes there have been lasting more than a few days, if that.

It's interesting that you say "unions have lost autoworkers and factory workers their jobs by the thousands." Come again? By doing what? Demanding a decent wage and benefits? Even GM -- the single largest buyer of health care insurance in this country -- doesn't blame the unions. It blames this country's lack of a national health plan for the fact that it has to add nearly $3,000 to the sticker price of every car. Why do you think Toyota decided to build its latest plant in Canada, where it will deal with unionized workers? Because the health care is already provided.

Do I think that nursing unions are that much different? I hope not. I see nothing wrong with expecting a decent wage, guaranteed benefits and fair treatment in exchange for my labor. Nursing isn't a sacrifice. It's a job.

And finally, I find it amusing -- at best -- that you bolster your anti-union argument by asking if I don't think the AHA will lobby for more foreign nurses to come here and work for less.

Yes, my friend, I certainly do. And that's exactly why I need a union. Who's protecting you?

I think you are deluding yourself on how often nurses strikes happen, but since neither of us can find an exact number I am not going to argue a lack of facts.

If unions and the overprice of labor haven't driven GM's autoworkers out of jobs then why is GM's main plan to get out of the red to retire/buyout workers and severely reduce their workforce, and blaming GMs problems on a lack of universal healthcare is naive at best. Autoworkers definetively make a great wage for factory workers w/o any educational requirement besides OJT...whether that is fair...to make 20-30+an hour for that is whole other story. GM would never blame the union for anything, because they are afraid of their union.

I never called nursing a sacrafice, but I certainly don't believe it is just a job either. We are no were close to being on the same page if you think nursing is nothing more than job.

I don't need a union to protect my job. The market will do that for every nurse for a long time to come. I rely on the AANA to fight for me, and my education will keep me safer than anything a union could do for me. I am more interested in helping out all nurses than having unions work piecemeal deals with one hospital at a time.

[HM2Viking]

All I know is that union workers receive a 20% salary premium on average. In MPLS MNA helped establish a defined benefit pension for nurses (aka the good kind not the yoyo) that is completely portable AND all hospitals are contributing to funding....

[Freedom42]

Originally Posted by wtbcrna

If unions and the overprice of labor haven't driven GM's autoworkers out of jobs then why is GM's main plan to get out of the red to retire/buyout workers and severely reduce their workforce, and blaming GMs problems on a lack of universal healthcare is naive at best. Autoworkers definetively make a great wage for factory workers w/o any educational requirement besides OJT...whether that is fair...to make 20-30+an hour for that is whole other story. GM would never blame the union for anything, because they are afraid of their union.

I don't need a union to protect my job. The market will do that for every nurse for a long time to come. I rely on the AANA to fight for me, and my education will keep me safer than anything a union could do for me. I am more interested in helping out all nurses than having unions work piecemeal deals with one hospital at a time.

If blaming GM's problems on a lack of universal health care is "naive at best," you'd better explain that to GM management. They went to the White House last May to make an appeal to the president for a national health plan. Even that bleeding heart liberal George Will says GM is "at a $5 billion disadvantage" because workers in Japan have a national health plan. The playing field is not level. That is not the fault of unions.

As for the market protecting your job, you've previously suggested that the AHA will lobby to bring in cheap foreign labor to undercut your pay check. Those ideas conflict. You've also said that your education will keep you safer than a union. Good luck waving that sheepskin when management decides that it's cutting your retirement benefits and jacking up your insurance costs.

[workingforskies]

Originally Posted by wtbcrna

If you would take the time to go back and look at the problems that unions have caused in the U.S. as well as helped you would understand where that comment comes from. At what point is there enough benefits...? There are thousands of out of work people because their unions basically put them out of job. I am for cutting any CEOs salary, but over a large hospital system with thousands of nurses how far do really think that will go?
If you don't care if the hospital system goes bankrupt why not just go find a new job now, and what will happen to your pension if the hospital goes bankrupt?

I have a pension? News to me. It's a 401k plan. I keep that forever.

There is money being dumped, hand over fist, into the health care system. It would be nice if some of that money, percentage wise, trickled down to the people actually delivering the health care. As it is plainly not, what that tells me is that the health care machine is not terribly concerned with the financial well being of the people doing the work. So that begs the question, why should I care about their financial plight?