[DarrenWright]

http://www.ilanamercer.com/Failure.htm

By design, a monopoly produces a different kind of worker. Unwilling to have their wages capped and freedoms restricted, the best inevitably leave. Mediocrity, unfortunately, gives rise to fewer malcontents and thus is a prerequisite for stability in the system. Put it this way: if a socialized system wants to survive, it must expunge the most driven and gifted from its midst. When wages, moreover, are tied to a negotiated deal with labour, rather than, in the case of a competitive market, to the individual physician's performance, the position of the mediocre practitioner is further reinforced.

[fergus51]

Wages aren't as bad as you seem to think. The top of the payscale in my home province is about $35 an hour for a staff nurse. The top of the payscale here at my hospital in California is about $38. Not a big difference since the dollars are almost even and the cost of living is a lot more expensive here.

Mediocre care is not encouraged there anymore than here. That's just wrong. Some hospitals in this country are bad (see King Drew on the news lately?), some are exceptional. It's no different in Canada.

The US doesn't need the Canadian system and vice versa. Both have pros and cons and each country's people can decide for themselves which they prefer.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by fergus51

Wages aren't as bad as you seem to think. The top of the payscale in my home province is about $35 an hour for a staff nurse. The top of the payscale here at my hospital in California is about $38. Not a big difference since the dollars are almost even and the cost of living is a lot more expensive here.

Mediocre care is not encouraged there anymore than here. That's just wrong. Some hospitals in this country are bad (see King Drew on the news lately?), some are exceptional. It's no different in Canada.

The US doesn't need the Canadian system and vice versa. Both have pros and cons and each country's people can decide for themselves which they prefer.

King Drew is a gov't operated hospital; sort of proves the point the author was making.

There are RN's in California that are making a lot more than $35/hr.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031401518.html

The median wage for RN's working in hospitals in this California town is $39/hr, meaning $39/hr is the value in the middle; half of the RN's make MORE than $39/hr.

[Noryn]

The arguments against socialized health care are hilarious. OK since public healthcare for everyone is such a bad idea, lets also get rid of police protection, fire departments, public schooling, etc. I have a hard time understanding why anyone can defend our current for profit system.

We pay on average more for healthcare per citizen than other countries do, so of course it is only natural to believe that our system is working. That is why our life expectancy and health are so much better than other countries... err wait. That argument doesnt float, how about this one--"Socialized health care is one step away from Communism!!!!!" There that is a lot better.

These insurance companies are a joke. Our healthcare dollars are simply making executives millionaires. Oh yeah, that congressman or rep that "loves his mother" probably loves his millions now.

[pebbles]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

King Drew is a gov't operated hospital; sort of proves the point the author was making.

There are RN's in California that are making a lot more than $35/hr.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031401518.html

The median wage for RN's working in hospitals in this California town is $39/hr, meaning $39/hr is the value in the middle; half of the RN's make MORE than $39/hr.

....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california???


I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

[Noryn]

Originally Posted by pebbles

It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

Humanity is not a concern in the states, as one of the original points that article points out, it is about avoiding bankruptcy and making a profit no matter what. Does that mean dumping confused patients on skid row? Yes. Does that mean denying someone potentially life saving treatment "because it is experimental"? Yes.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by pebbles

....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california???


I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

I know I could never afford to buy a home here on my wage (I do make more than the median). My friends back in my smaller hometown in BC all own nice homes for less than 200K (all nurses in the province make the same wage regardless of where they live). A small home in my neighbourhood starts around 700K My dad just can't understand why I don't buy something down here

[DarrenWright]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Noryn

The arguments against socialized health care are hilarious. OK since public healthcare for everyone is such a bad idea, lets also get rid of police protection, fire departments, public schooling, etc. I have a hard time understanding why anyone can defend our current for profit system. quote]

In the US, 70% of fire protection is done by volunteers. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

The public school system is doing terribly, especially when compared to non-public education.

Our "police protection" is just as privatized as health care; thousands of private security officers are hired by businesses and communities to supplement 'police protection,' and the tax-funded police departments would never be able to fill in the gaps that are protected by private officers. If our "police protection" was as 'socialized' as Canadian health care, we'd be living in anarchy.

Additionally, there are a lot of things we are able to do to protect ourselves from crime, but are not able to do for ourselves when it comes to healthcare...i.e. I can put in an alarm system, lock my car, and buy a gun, but I can't stitch my own cuts or perform my own colonoscopy.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by pebbles

....and would you like to talk about the cost of living in california???


I've read a LOT of nursing communities and a LOT of discussions about the job, the wages, the benefits, the quality of care.

The imperfections that exists in canadian facilities also exist in many american places. Yah, the US has lots of mediocre doctors and nurses too. The standard of living for nurses living in canada is on par with some of the higher-paid states. Because our costs of living are lower.

The fact that it ain't "perfect" doesn't mean it should be scrapped. It's still much more humane than a private system that doesn't take care of EVERYONE. imo.

The cost of living has nothing to do with this discussion. If we were living in a socialized system, the cost of living and real estate would be the same in California, but nurses would be paid LESS!

You are correct, there are mediocre doctors and nurses in the US, too, but the point of the article is that these kinds of providers are championed in the socialized system. Providers with higher expectations of themselves can excel in a free market system instead of being rewarded to the same lower incentive as the mediocre providers.

[Noryn]

How do these volunteer fire departments get the majority of their funding?

Has our public school system always done poorly or is it a more recent trend especially among the schools in poor neighborhoods?

In my opinion we already are close to living in anarchy in that money wields near unlimited power.

So since "police protection" is so inadequate here in the states, you think that these departments should be resolved?