[Spidey's mom]

I live in the uppermost part of California in a rural community and the homes here are so high that most local folks are priced out of the market. All you rich So. Cal and Bay Area folks retire and come up here and pay the high prices w/o a blink of an eye.

I know . . . off topic.

I'm enjoying the conversation . . . . keep going.

steph

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by stevielynn

I live in the uppermost part of California in a rural community and the homes here are so high that most local folks are priced out of the market. All you rich So. Cal and Bay Area folks retire and come up here and pay the high prices w/o a blink of an eye.

I know . . . off topic.

I'm enjoying the conversation . . . . keep going.

steph

I hear the same thing from those in Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. I just can't imagine spending 3 or 4K a month on a mortgage!!! My rent is now $1700 and that's more than enough. It's still worth it to live accross the street from the beach

[Spidey's mom]

Originally Posted by fergus51

I hear the same thing from those in Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. I just can't imagine spending 3 or 4K a month on a mortgage!!! My rent is now $1700 and that's more than enough. It's still worth it to live accross the street from the beach

I know . . . my niece and her husband spend a fortune on a mortgage in a regular old neighborhood in Sacramento and their mortgage is about $3000.

That is nuts.

I must be old . . . . my parents first home in Red Bluff was a 4 bedroom home in a nice neighborhood and it was $11,000. You can't even buy a car for that.

steph

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by fergus51

How did you prove this exactly? Nurses in Victoria probably make more money than a nurse in Arkansas. A nurse in Ontario will make more than a nurse in New Mexico. That would seem to prove that blanket statement to be invalid.

Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage. Privately run hospitals have just as much incentive to keep wages as low as they can.

This is simply mud in the discussion. "Probably" is a word that supports nothing. What I did was compare similar areas (i.e. Toronto and White Plains). Not an entire state (Arkansas) and a city (Victoria). And I suspect that a nurse in NM sees a lower wage than a nurse in Ontario, but a more accurate comparison would be to take a look at your immediate neighbors in NY and Michigan, and just across the lake in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Would you suggest that on average, the nurses in the Canadian socialized system make more than nurses in the more privatized American system? If so, I would like to understand, given the nursing shortage in both countries, why there is a remarkably higher percentage of Canadian RN's crossing the border to work? What is the incentive driving this process?

And if wages are only a function of supply, demand, cost of living, and negotiation, why are all Ontario nurses paid the same regardless of where they work? Isn't the cost of living much higher in Toronto compared to the rest of the province?

Privately run hospitals have a GREATER incentive to keep costs down; they don't have the privilege of asking for more money from the gov't if they perform poorly. They also have other incentive; to provide services to as many people as possible in order to improve revenue. A socialized system does not have that incentive.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by fergus51

I never said socialization of medicine changes the cost of living in an area. I am saying it's an important thing to consider when comparing who makes more. You can't say "Nurses in California make more money than nurses in Canada, so their wage is better" unless you consider the impact their cost of living has on the purchasing power of their wage.

Trust me, I've lived and worked in both places. You can make more money in the US than in Canada. You can do that and still wind up with less in your bank account at the end of the day too. I make a good living in California and really love it down here but I'm not naive enough to think I can afford what my friends can back in Canada, despite my higher wage. So, should I really be so thrilled to make more money than them when it buys me less? Luckily I don't live here for the wage.

Now we are getting somewhere...almost.

Here's what I'm saying; you can change the system, but you will never change the cost of living. I believe at the end of the day that socializing the American system will result in lower wages for nurses, and they will have an even lower purchasing power because the cost of living will not change. So I ask, do you actually believe that changing the system will improve nursing wages?

And here's what your friends back in Canada cannot afford on their Canadian wage, and it's the ability to live in California.

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

Privately run hospitals have a GREATER incentive to keep costs down; they don't have the privilege of asking for more money from the gov't if they perform poorly. They also have other incentive; to provide services to as many people as possible in order to improve revenue. A socialized system does not have that incentive.

Single payer is NOT socialized medicine. The provider stays independent. Private physicians, clinics, hospitals, PT, chiropractic, dentists, optometry, skilled nursing stay the same.

The government will not run the hospitals, clinics, or others.
The county facilities and Beverly Hills hospitals will be paid paid by a single payer. No more hospitals going to the government to get money for indigent care.

We are a great country. Let us get better!

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

Would you suggest that on average, the nurses in the Canadian socialized system make more than nurses in the more privatized American system? If so, I would like to understand, given the nursing shortage in both countries, why there is a remarkably higher percentage of Canadian RN's crossing the border to work? What is the incentive driving this process?
.

I would suggest that comparisons like "on average" are useless because the devil is always in the details. There are a ton of reasons why Canadian nurses come here. Some for the money, but note where they are going. It's to specific states. We get A TON of southern nurses taking travel contracts out here too for the same reason (even in their unsocialized system, they can make more money in California). Some come for the opportunities (the US have 10 times the population and a lot more places to work and go to school). Some come for the adventure.

If nursing in the US was SO much better than nursing in Canada why don't all nurses from Canada come here? It's pretty easy for them to do. Yet, most Canadian nurses will never work down here. Many that do eventually go back home because things like family, cost of living, maternity benefits, vacation time, working conditions, holidays, cost of living, etc. all have to be factored into their decision. We were never as short staffed in Toronto as I've been down here, we don't even have to rely on travel nurses to run our unit.

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

And if wages are only a function of supply, demand, cost of living, and negotiation, why are all Ontario nurses paid the same regardless of where they work? Isn't the cost of living much higher in Toronto compared to the rest of the province?.

Because the province has one union and the union negotiates the one contract. The cost of living comparisons which influence wages are between provinces (Ontario is more expensive to live in overall than Newfoundland for instance so nurses there get paid more).

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

Privately run hospitals have a GREATER incentive to keep costs down; they don't have the privilege of asking for more money from the gov't if they perform poorly. They also have other incentive; to provide services to as many people as possible in order to improve revenue. A socialized system does not have that incentive.

It's obvious to me that you've never worked in Canada if that's what you think. People in Canada feel ENTITLED to healthcare. If you aren't doing your job at your hospital, expect a BIG ruckus. Efficiency is demanded.

Private hospitals like you said have a greater incentive to keep costs down. Know what the biggest operating cost a hospital has is don't ya? Nursing wages.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

Now we are getting somewhere...almost.

Here's what I'm saying; you can change the system, but you will never change the cost of living. I believe at the end of the day that socializing the American system will result in lower wages for nurses, and they will have an even lower purchasing power because the cost of living will not change. So I ask, do you actually believe that changing the system will improve nursing wages?

And here's what your friends back in Canada cannot afford on their Canadian wage, and it's the ability to live in California.

You believe it will result in lower wages for nurses. OK, I understand why you'd be fearful then.

I don't. I've been around long enough and in enough places to know that won't happen. Even in a socialized system like in Canada, the government has to negotiate a contract with nurses. It's no different from what CNA does with its employer hospitals in California.

BTW, my friends in Canada make about the same as a staff nurse here. They could afford it. They just choose not to leave, no matter how hard I try to convince them to come down. They visit and that's enough for them. They actually can't understand why I haven't moved home yet to start a "real life".

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by fergus51

It's obvious to me that you've never worked in Canada if that's what you think. People in Canada feel ENTITLED to healthcare. If you aren't doing your job at your hospital, expect a BIG ruckus. Efficiency is demanded.

Private hospitals like you said have a greater incentive to keep costs down. Know what the biggest operating cost a hospital has is don't ya? Nursing wages.

Very very well put...

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

Single payer is NOT socialized medicine. The provider stays independent. Private physicians, clinics, hospitals, PT, chiropractic, dentists, optometry, skilled nursing stay the same.

The government will not run the hospitals, clinics, or others.
The county facilities and Beverly Hills hospitals will be paid paid by a single payer. No more hospitals going to the government to get money for indigent care.

We are a great country. Let us get better!

Singler payer is socialized in that it is socialized financing, and changing to any kind of socialized system will definitely affect any provider who receives these reimbursements.

We can get better, but the issues must first be properly identified and addressed with intellectual honesty.