[zahryia]

[quote=DarrenWright;2258085]

In the US, 70% of fire protection is done by volunteers. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

The public school system is doing terribly, especially when compared to non-public education.

Our "police protection" is just as privatized as health care; thousands of private security officers are hired by businesses and communities to supplement 'police protection,' and the tax-funded police departments would never be able to fill in the gaps that are protected by private officers. If our "police protection" was as 'socialized' as Canadian health care, we'd be living in anarchy.

Additionally, there are a lot of things we are able to do to protect ourselves from crime, but are not able to do for ourselves when it comes to healthcare...i.e. I can put in an alarm system, lock my car, and buy a gun, but I can't stitch my own cuts or perform my own colonoscopy.

Are you for real?

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by pebbles

"Brian Drain" is a media sensationalist term.
Provide some real evidence that the actual health care provided in canada's system is mediocre, especially mediocre compared to what is provided to the population in the US.

The term "brain drain" was not coined by the media, but was coined by the Royal Society of London (an organization for the advancement of science), and was developed in response to the loss of intellectual talent to the US.

Maybe you prefer I call it "capital flight" where people move to make more money elsewhere. Doesn't matter what it's called, the process is occurring.

I just provided the article; I don't think you can measure mediocrity. I do think you can identify policies which promote it, and the policies which promote rising above mediocrity.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

The volunteer firefighters are part time. I am in awe of people who do that for their small communities!
But the career firefighters are full time. They protect those of in in cities and larger communities.

The volunteer firefighters are not paid.

According to the National Volunteer Fire Council, the number of volunteer firefighters in the United States declined more than 10 percent from 1983 to 2003. Yet the 800,050 volunteers in 2003 made up 73 percent of the country’s firefighting force.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by ayla2004

canada sounds similar to uk all nurses in the same grade and paid the same rate, however there is a extra for those in greatar london area, this goes across the board for all public workers in that area.

Canada doesn't have extra pay for more expensive cities though. Nurses in each province have a union which negotiates their pay scale and it's the same for all nurses in that province (based on years of experience and extra for management positions). Some provinces pay very well and some don't. It's the same in the US. That's the reason you'll meet Canadian nurses in California and New York, but not so many in Alabama or Arkansas.

Those who think high pay = good job performance understand very little about what motivates me as a nurse. I expect to make a decent living, but I worked just as hard when I was making $22 an hour as I do now.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by fergus51

You showed the wages for ONE area, just like I did. That isn't a country by country comparison and in order for it to be meaningful you have to consider cost of living. Nurses in California make a lot more than nurses in Mississippi, but that doesn't necessarily mean we live better on it. Like I pointed out, I'll never be able to buy a home with my salary here. My 25 year old colleague from Mississippi was able to buy one within weeks of starting her job out there. Which one of us is richer?

Anyways, I don't know why this topic always comes up. The US already has a semi-socialized-semi-private system and that's how it will stay because that's what the people want. Most Canadians I know have no desire to replicate the US system up there.

Actually, someone else reported a number for wages in a specific area, claiming it to be similar to what nurses were making in Canada. I simply showed otherwise.

One point I've made is that it doesn't matter if you socialize the system, the cost of living will not be affected, doesn't matter if it's Canada or the US, so it's not really functional to attempt to discredit the amount of money that a nurse is making in a private system based on it's purchasing ability, because a nurse working in a socialized system faces the same challenges. Another point I've made is that regardless of geography, nurses in a more privatized system make more.

Maybe it's better expressed this way; nurses in a socialized system do not have some magical increased purchasing capacity just because they work in an entirely socialized system.

And in spite of the Canadian preference for their system, there is still problems in Canada, and one of the solutions that the Canadian citizen has been using is crossing the border, and another solution that the Canadian gov't has been implementing has been relaxing the laws on privatization. Enhanced privatization is improving Canadian health care whether the majority of them want it or not, be it border crossing or changes in legislation.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

. Another point I've made is that regardless of geography, nurses in a more privatized system make more.
.

How did you prove this exactly? Nurses in Victoria probably make more money than a nurse in Arkansas. A nurse in Ontario will make more than a nurse in New Mexico. That would seem to prove that blanket statement to be invalid.

Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage. Privately run hospitals have just as much incentive to keep wages as low as they can.

[UKRNinUSA]

"Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage."

Well said Fergus!!!!!

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by fergus51

You realize that nurses living in the entire province make that same wage though don't you? It does suck for the nurses in Toronto (I was one of them for a while), but it's great for nurses who live in Peterborough, Brandon, Thunderbay, etc. It's the same in my home province. The nursing wage won't make you rich in Vancouver, but it's pretty damn good in Kamloops, Kelowna or Prince George.

That's incredibly unfortunate for Toronto nurses. BTW, I made 25.50/hr five years ago working in a non-union hospital in Pittsburgh, a city where the cost of living is fantastically lower than Toronto.

Seven months ago I started a new job in the south; I now make 36.83 per hour in a non-union hospital, where they pay for my health insurance (minus copays), and will pay for a portion of my college tuition. I've been an RN for only five years.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

One point I've made is that it doesn't matter if you socialize the system, the cost of living will not be affected, doesn't matter if it's Canada or the US, so it's not really functional to attempt to discredit the amount of money that a nurse is making in a private system based on it's purchasing ability, because a nurse working in a socialized system faces the same challenges..

I never said socialization of medicine changes the cost of living in an area. I am saying it's an important thing to consider when comparing who makes more. You can't say "Nurses in California make more money than nurses in Canada, so their wage is better" unless you consider the impact their cost of living has on the purchasing power of their wage.

Trust me, I've lived and worked in both places. You can make more money in the US than in Canada. You can do that and still wind up with less in your bank account at the end of the day too. I make a good living in California and really love it down here but I'm not naive enough to think I can afford what my friends can back in Canada, despite my higher wage. So, should I really be so thrilled to make more money than them when it buys me less? Luckily I don't live here for the wage.

[fergus51]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

That's incredibly unfortunate for Toronto nurses. BTW, I made 25.50/hr five years ago working in a non-union hospital in Pittsburgh, a city where the cost of living is fantastically lower than Toronto.

Seven months ago I started a new job in the south; I now make 36.83 per hour in a non-union hospital, where they pay for my health insurance (minus copays), and will pay for a portion of my college tuition. I've been an RN for only five years.

You've got a good job then New grads at my current hospital start at $27 an hour and I'm pretty sure the cost of living is fantastically higher than in Pittsburgh We get paid partly in sunshine I think...