[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

We can achieve higher quality health care at a lower price: Emphasis added.


http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?...lth_of_nations

And American nurses (and physicians), unionized or not, would never agree to the working conditions and salaries of the French.

[Ladybugleaqueen]

I lived in Canada so I have seen their universal healthcare up close and personal. I can't tell you how good it was to know that if I got sick I would be able to go to the doctor or the hospital and not have to worry about paying and you stayed until you were able to go home you weren't rushed out because someone without a medical degree said you had to go. I could focus on getting better it is different when you have a chronic health condition the worry is always there. Canada still has private insurance it comes through their employers it pays for the extras that the provincial healthcare system doesn't also prescriptions drugs are covered under private insurance however government has a hand in it that is why their drugs are so much cheaper. I know nothing is free Canada pays higher taxes for their healthcare system. Why couldn't we have some sort of monthly premium for all possibly based on income for basic healthcare on the lines of the Medicare system. We could still keep private insurance for those who could afford it through employers. There just has to be an answer what good is all the technology that we have if people can't afford it.

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

And American nurses (and physicians), unionized or not, would never agree to the working conditions and salaries of the French.

I couldn't find much in English.

Experiencing Nursing in France - http://www.nursezone.com/include/Pri...le=Main%20page

http://www.edufrance.net/adm/docs/fi...irmier2-GB.pdf

[HM2Viking]

http://www.payscale.com/research/FR/...se_(RN)/Salary


33,780.00 EUR

=

45,344.72 USD




The numbers
Here's the lowdown on how many vacation days the rest of the world enjoys. According to Hewitt Associates, the country with the most vacation days is Denmark with 31, followed closely by Austria and Finland at 30 days. France and Norway are at 25 days, Germany at 24 days, Belgium, Ireland, the U.K., the Netherlands and Switzerland each at 20 days. Non-European countries measured include Brazil at 22 days, Australia at 20 days and Colombia and New Zealand each at 15 days. The U.S. is second from the bottom with 10 days, tied with both Canada and Japan. Only Mexico, with a piddly six days, offers employees less vacation time.

http://www.vault.com/nr/printable.js...810101&print=1

Pay is not everything. 5 weeks guaranteed vacation each year plus the other social benefit of not having to worry about losing your job=lost health insurance is a huge benefit. If french workers worked the same number of days as US workers the salaries would be roughly equal. This salary report is based on a very limited number of employees.

[DarrenWright]

An American working as an RN in France.

An RN with 15 years experience makes about $2500 per month. This RN makes $1600 per month working in an ICU with a 1:13 patient ratio!

http://aboutmyjob.com/main.php3?acti...cle&artid=2489

The entries on this site are only 2 years old.

In addition, unemployment is remarkably higher in France, and French nurses have gone on strike at least three times in the past 10 years because of working conditions, primarly understaffing. I suppose one could speculate why hospitals are so understaffed in France that they are going on strike NATIONALLY...not just institutionally.

Here's a link from NIH.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=419378

"The first strategy is to use the variation in wages across destination countries. For each source country, the wage premium for nurses is largest in the USA and smallest in France and the United Kingdom."

6% of French nurses left the public sector in 2001. http://www.icn.ch/sewjan-march03.htm

Just want to clarify, are you suggesting that working conditions are better in France? Keep in mind that I only work a 36 hour week, and have far more opportunities in practice.

[pickledpepperRN]

Not much in English but I did find some information on line. A nurse who works with us worked in a Paris ICU for six years. She told us that acuities are more variable. A fresh open hear stays until discharge. Usually until able to climb two flights of stairs and walk at least 200 meters before discharged.
Doctors work alongside nurses. At the hospital where she worked nurses did not start IVs. I don’t know if that is customary for France or whether it was a hospital policy.
I can’t find actual staffing for nurses and doctors in English. Maybe it is not available. None of what I found gave me an idea on whether staffing is safe or not. My colleague thought it was OK.

Physicians staff hospital units. They work shifts, start IVs, suction, change dressings, and administer medications. - http://thorax.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/57/1/77

The nurse to patient ratio in the Paris critical care units participating in this study ranged from 1:1 to 1:3. It is implies but not explicit that the staffing is based on acuity - http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/co...ract/163/1/135

French physicians, intensivists, who have a good working relationship with nurses are less likely to experience burn out. - http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/co...ract/175/7/686

[HM2Viking]

For all countries, responses indicate room for improvement. Yet, the other five countries spend considerably less on health care per person and as a percent of gross domestic product than does the United States. These findings indicate that, from the perspectives of both physicians and patients, the U.S. health care system could do much better in achieving better value for the nation's substantial investment in health.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publ...?doc_id=482678

[HM2Viking]

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/char...?doc_id=482798

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

You are right that single payer would not guarantee all the healthcare a person needs. That is the goal. Nurses are working toward that goal.
If not single payer what do you suggest?

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

There is no such thing as a program that will guarantee "all the healthcare a person needs." It's simply not an achievable goal.

I looked and looked and cannot find any suggestions, ideas, or ways to improve healthcare in the United States.
I really like your garden idea. It would improve some peoples health.
Any ideas for insured victims of accidents or illness who are denied healthcare?

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

Originally Posted by spacenurse



I looked and looked and cannot find any suggestions, ideas, or ways to improve healthcare in the United States.
I really like your garden idea. It would improve some peoples health.
Any ideas for insured victims of accidents or illness who are denied healthcare?

One solution is acceptance of the fact that has already been presented; we simply cannot take care of every disease that everyone might contract.

As far as victims of accidents or illness that are denied healthcare, could you provide some examples? There is no epidemic of people dying from accident injuries that were not covered. Someone might cite an example such as the M.Moore guest who's insurance did not cover finger re-attachment. My father has two fingers amputated from two different accidents, and he was able to work for 20 years. Granted, he had to relearn how to play the guitar, but the fact that his fingers weren't reattached did not make him the victim of insufficient insurance.

Items like this are another example of intellectual dishonesty.