[ZASHAGALKA]

Coming to a gov't restricted health care plan near you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../02/nhs102.xml
NHS patients told to treat themselves

"Millions of people with arthritis, asthma and even heart failure will be urged to treat themselves as part of a Government plan to save billions of pounds from the NHS budget.
Instead of going to hospital or consulting a doctor, patients will be encouraged to carry out "self care" as the Department of Health (DoH) tries to meet Treasury targets to curb spending."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../02/nhs202.xml
Waiting times target 'will be missed'

"Plans to eliminate excessive waiting times in the National Health Service stand no chance of succeeding, an independent think-tank claims today.

In a serious blow to Gordon Brown's credibility, Civitas says the target of a maximum 18-week delay from GP referral to treatment by December is an "impossibility".

~~~
UNDERSTAND THIS: The NHS set an EIGHTEEN WEEK STANDARD as a reasonable delay between diagnosis by a GP and actual referral for treatment. AND THEY CAN'T MEET THIS GOAL.

I don't know what's worse: setting a 4.5 month standard as a 'reasonable' wait in the first place, or, failing to meet it.

How many of you are truly willing to wait 4.5 months for a referral, and that's only IF the gov't meets it's rationing goals. If not, who knows how long you'll wait?

Unlimited demand = unlimited supply (impossible) or rationed supply. It's a law of economics. Congress can't change that.

The last time I needed surgery, the wait time from seeing my GP to seeing the specialist was 18 HOURS; not 18 WEEKS. I saw my GP on Thurs, saw the Surgeon on FRI, and had surgery the following Monday. Given a choice, I would choose 18 HOURS over 18 WEEKS. Which, of course, is why gov't restricted health care first requires the removal of choice.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ncancer417.xml

NHS may deny care to woman over Avastin

"A woman with breast cancer could be denied free treatment on the NHS because she wants to improve her chance of survival by paying for an extra drug herself.

She said: "If I want to pay for Avastin, I must pay for everything. It's immoral that the drugs are out there and freely available to certain people, yet they say I cannot have it."

The Government is opposed to patients receiving private treatment on top of NHS care because they believe it could lead to people on the same ward receiving different drugs based on their ability to pay."

It wouldn't be 'fair' for her to get this treatment by paying for it herself. She should just die fair and square, like everyone else, instead of making such a big deal out of it.

How immoral is this? Well, it's the government and the government isn't allowed to have morals, right?

But you see, allowing her to seek a better chance at survival is "in direct contravention with the principles and values of the NHS."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770
South Tees Hospitals NHS Trust said: "If a patient chooses to go private for certain drugs they elect to become a private patient for the course of their treatment for that condition. That is the trust policy."

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...s+care/1207647
Another patient; same story.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ingelein]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAWZrfYXs-c

http://allnurses.com/forums/f23/new-...ce-285000.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLLVhneIBTc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHNC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4kEv...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2peGq...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDHkl...eature=related

And this is what we PAY for?

more, I could go on ....

http://www.click2houston.com/investi...06/detail.html

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...ck=1&cset=true

[jjjoy]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

I disagree. You are projecting current availability of private schools onto the VAST amount of choice you'd have if parents could direct their children's education dollars...
For example. Are all the good cell phone plans 'filled up' now? All the good restaurants in your town? ...
There may be SOME competition for limited space in better places. True. But to say that it would be a game of musical chairs and some kids would be left out isn't exactly true.

You have a point there. But cell phones are profit generating, not subsidized by vouchers backed by our tax dollars. To maximize their profit, reputable sought-after schools could raise their fees well above the voucher amount... thus becoming more or less the same as current exclusive private schools.

Restaurants... well, there are some parts of town that don't have anything better than Burger King and Taco Bell. Nicer restaurants, even just a Chili's, know that some communities won't be profitable for them. I'm not saying that public education has managed to offer equal educational opportunities across all communities, but I don't see how vouchers would increase the opportunities across all communities either.

It comes down to choice. The gov't plan removes all choice: your children must be education in a humanist feel good environment. What if I don't WANT my child being taught outright lies, such as evolution and global warming? Sorry, that's the law - it's on the secular humanist agenda... See, at issue is that some of you simply don't think I should have a say in what my children are taught. The whole issue of denying choice is veto my say, as a parent.

"Some of you simply don't think"... There are lots of people out there who think lots of things, but your statement sounds accusatory or presumptuous. Do you seriously think that most public education supporters have nefarious underlying motives to properly indoctrinate all children? If that were the case, wouldn't more people be lobbying to abolish parochial schools altogether?

While you may not like the current standards in public education and you may not like having your tax dollars support it, there *is* a choice of whether or not to send *your* kids there. And while the school may teach evolution - and students should be aware of the theory if they're ever going to be among other scientists or read scientific literature - the schools don't require students to believe it. If they do, you as a parent can take that up with your school's officials.

And "secular humanist agenda"? Sounds kinda like the "vast right-wing conspiracy." There probably are forces out there pushing such an agenda. Just like there are forces out there that would like to see the US run as a theocracy. But lets keep this to folks like you and me who just want the best for the most people. We may (and do) disagree on how to do and what will and won't work, but please let's not make presumptions about our motives.

[HM2Viking]

I think what the NHS stories speak to is the importance of transparency in managing health care resources. Healthy systems talk about their problems as a means of identifying causes, developing interventions and evaluating the effectiveness of the interventions.

Molly Ivins quote about fixing the problem is true for government and true for the private sector. If there is a problem fix it; don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think the fifteenth amendment speaks to the very real role of regulation in protecting the rights of citizens.

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...ndmentxiv.html

When we design an effective UHC plan as a nation one of the effects will be to establish constitutive intent. Congress will be acting to protect citizens from arbitrary actions by either government or the private sector through establishment of laws designed to assure access to health care. Net effect of these laws would extend 15th Amendment protections of a guarantee of due process and review of health care coverage issues. In other words "We the People" would have a definite method to attain protection from arbitrary actions. No market based proposal can deliver that kind of protection.

[HM2Viking]

Claims that competition will improve education are not supported by the avalable evidence.

What does the research say about
vouchers?

The most credible scientific research has indicated
no differences in the academic achievement of
voucher students compared to public school
students, despite the fact that private schools
get to choose which students will attend their
schools. 3 Pro-voucher research 4 has been
discredited as methodologically flawed. 5

Furthermore, vouchers do not improve public
schools by creating competition.6 Public and private
schools operate on very different playing fields so

true competition between the two is impossible.

http://www.nea.org/vouchers/images/p...efvouchers.pdf

If anything when educational research is compared on an apples to apples basis the private schools underperform the public schools:

Unlike public schools,
private schools can—and do:
Limit their enrollments and class sizes;
Discriminate in their admissions on the basis
of race, gender, religion, family background,
academic achievement, test scores, disciplinary
history, athletic ability, and special needs;
Expel students at any time and without due process;
Refuse to administer state tests and report on the
results;
Refuse admission to special needs students;
Refuse to comply with open meeting and open
records laws and refuse to share information on
how they are spending public money and how
their students are doing;
Refuse to require that their teachers are certified
or qualified.
In fact, when test scores are weighted to reflect
socioeconomic level, race, and disability, public
school students have actually been found to

outperform private school students.7

...

4

An Evaluation of the Cleveland Voucher Program after Two

Years, Paul Peterson, William Howell, Jay Greene, Harvard
University, June 1999, http://www.schoolchoiceinfo.
org/data/research/pepgCle.pdf. See also, School Choice
in New York City after Two Years: An Evaluation of the
School Choice Scholarships Program, Paul Peterson, et al.
Mathematica Policy Research, Inc., August 2000, http://

www.mathematica-mpr.com/PDFs/school2.pdf; “Results of

a School Voucher Experiment: The Case of Washington, D.C.
after Two Years,” Patrick J. Wolf, Paul E. Peterson, and Martin
R. West, Harvard University Program on Education Policy
and Governance Research Paper, August 2001; “School
Choice in Dayton, Ohio after Two Years: An Evaluation of
the Parents Advancing Choice in Education Scholarship
Program,” Martin R. West, Paul E. Peterson, and David E.
Campbell, Harvard University Program on Education Policy

and Governance Research Paper, August 2001.

5

Reply to Greene, Peterson and Du: The Effectiveness of

School Choice in Milwaukee: A Secondary Analysis of Data
from the Program’s Evaluation, John F. Witte, Department
of Political Science and The Robert La Follette Institute of
Public Affairs, University of Wisconsin-Madison, August
1996. See also, Another Look at the New York City School
Voucher Experiment, Alan B. Krueger and Pei Zhu, Princeton
University, April 2003, http://www.ers.princeton.edu/
workingpapers/1_ers.pdf.
6

Rhetoric Versus Reality, Brian P. Gill et al., Rand Education,

CA, 2001.
7

Charter, Private and Public Schools and Academic Achievement:

New Evidence from NAEP Mathematics Data, Lubienski
and Lubienski, National Center for the Study of Privatization
in Education, 2006, http://www.ncspe.org/publications_files/

OP111.pdf.

http://www.nea.org/vouchers/images/p...efvouchers.pdf

Jamie Vollmer tells a story about what happened to him at a presentation about school reform. (He was highly critical of public education)

She began quietly, “We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.”
I smugly replied, “Best ice cream in America, Ma’am.”
“How nice,” she said. “Is it rich and smooth?”
“Sixteen percent butterfat,” I crowed.
“Premium ingredients?” she inquired.
“Super-premium! Nothing but triple A.” I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.
“Mr. Vollmer,” she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, “when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?”
In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap…. I was dead meat, but I wasn’t going to lie.
“I send them back.”
“That’s right!” she barked, “and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it’s not a business. It’s school!”

http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html

Schools, like our health care system need to meet the needs of everyone on an equitable and fair basis in order to close gaps that interfere with achieving the full potential of individuals.

Education is both an individual civil right and a core responsibility of government in all 50 states under the individual state constitutions.

Given the role of the schools in preparing students for the new economy means teaching students to analyze problems, evaluate data, and develop solutions to problems. Teaching critical thinking is hardly "indoctrination." It is teaching students to figure things out for themselves.

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

Clains that competition will improve education are not supported by the avalable evidence.

http://www.nea.org/vouchers/images/p...efvouchers.pdf

If anything when educational research is compared on an apples to apples basis the private schools underperform the public schools:

http://www.nea.org/vouchers/images/p...efvouchers.pdf

Jamie Vollmer tells a story about what happened to him at a presentation about school reform. (He was highly critical of public education)

http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html

Schools, like our health care system need to meet the needs of everyone on an equitable and fair basis in order to close gaps that interfere with achieving the full potential of individuals.

Education is both an individual civil right and a core responsibility of government in all 50 states under the individual state constitutions.

Given the role of the schools in preparing students for the new economy means teaching students to analyze problems, evaluate data, and develop solutions to problems. Teaching critical thinking is hardly "indoctrination." It is teaching students to figure things out for themselves.

I would like to bring up a situation in NYC public schools, that is unprecedened any place else in the country.

NY, being a cosmopolitan type of city, and rather liberal in its thinking, two years ago opened up a "specialty" public school, that it based on the Muslim religion. That's right folks, a NYC public school, opened up a school with a "Muslim Flair", to teach about the Muslim faith so Americans learn to "understand" the Muslim faith and not be "afraid" of it.

The school is called the "Kahil Gibran" school, after the poet. For those of you who are not familiar with the NYC public school system, it is not unusual to have "specialty schools" as part of the public school systems. However, those schools have tradionnally been education special schools, like the science and math. This really crosses the line.

I can just imagine the uproar if the public school system opened up a St. 'Something', public school to teach the students about Christianity, and/or Catholicism. If you know what I mean. No amount of public disfavor over this school was able to stop it. Brings a new meaning to the words, "home grown terrorism".

Just thought that I would interject something that was probably not know outside of the NYC area. And another point to ponder about what has been done to our public school system in the name of "Political Correctness". JMHO.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[ingelein]

Separation of church and state. No reason such a school could not be private, but I agree that public schools have no place teaching religion.Religious groups meeting after school on school property, I see nothing wrong with it, as long as faculty members are not the head of such groups. Prayer should be allowed in such groups, no harm to anyone who CHOOSES to be a member of that extracurricular group. Also I see no reason why the various religions of the world cant be represented at special times like holidays, as long as ALL have a say.

[CRNA2007]

You're not choosing anything except jail time if you don't pay that money. Call up the state and federal governments and tell them this year you don't want to support someone elses children so you choose not to pay the taxes.

Originally Posted by jjjoy

What about choice? I choose to help provide public education for all children in this country through the taxes that I pay. Even if I don't have kids. I'm not going to ask for my money back even though I'm not directly benefiting public education.

[HM2Viking]

I don't understand the hostility for personal responsibility to the well-being of the community at large. Dean Baker makes the following observation:

Taxation is how the government pays for the services it provides. Taxes are not
voluntary – everyone disagrees with some uses of government money – but that
doesn’t give people the option not to pay their taxes. Similarly, there is no
perfect system of taxation and no matter how well the tax code is designed,
there will inevitably be inequities. But this also does not give people the right to
ignore their taxes. Furthermore, given a specific level of spending, when people
avoid taxes, the burden shifts to everyone else.
Taxes can be thought of as similar to condominium fees or assessments
for sewage and sanitation by a community association. Once the fee structure
has been set, paying the fee is a condition of staying in a condominium or

owning a house in a community. It is not optional.

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cnswebbook.pdf