[kjetski]

You have got to be kidding me! Why don't you look up the 2001 white paper the Tory Party published comparing the NHS to the rest of the civilized world? The data does not lie, the NHS is terrible compared to other countries/systems. And don't even start on me about how the waiting times have come down. I know that Labour has consistently cooked the books in that regard, as I would expect.

The primary reason is the amount of money spent. The UK spends 7% of GDP on healthcare and the USA spends 16%. No mystery there.

[harvey Rabbit]

I am not asking the government to meet all my needs. You fail to understand what I am saying in promoting universal healthcare. Our taxes will pay for it. I would rather that my taxes go to something to benefit our country and its citizens. Look at where they go now to and unjustified war in Iraq. As far as your socialism remark universal healthcare will not make us a socialistic nation. Look at it this way we already believe that every child is entitled to an education in this country. The puplic school system is supported by state and federal funds via our taxes. Our country claims to be moral and based on Christian values if so, it is time we put those values into practice. If you are in the medical field as a doctor or nurse soley to make more money you are in the wrong profession. I feel the first priority for a doctor or nurse should be to help people. If helping people is not your first priority over all others then you are in the wrong profession and should for the good of all seek another profession.

[kjetski]

Originally Posted by ZippyGBR

the classic 'i'm all right jack' mentality that hampers any kind of sensible reform of anything in the USA, how any one can think that a health system bloated with layers of pointless adminstration to creating bills for making bills is efficient ...

people love to quote these friend of a friend anecdotes, but quitesimply this is not the case , certainly with respect to the NHS although some of the time driven targets are arbitrary ( e.g. 4 hour A+E target) other targets have meaningful impact on service provision e.g. 2 week rule for cancer rule out, the rapid access chest pain rules and now 18 weeks for electives

how anyone can think a system which allows Emergency department holds for days on end is good ... ?

how anyone can think a system which enslaves people with a pre-existing medical condition to the employer they had when it was first diagnosed is good ?

18 weeks for "electives" does that include stents? lol

Inpatient waiting times

• The number of patients for whom English commissioners are responsible waiting over the 26 weeks standard for inpatient admission at the end of May 2008 was 42 (compared to the total of 535,000).
• The number of patients for whom English commissioners are responsible waiting over 13 weeks at the end of May 2008 was 40,000, an increase of 2,800 (7.6%) from April 2008, but a fall of 72,500 (64.4%) from May 2007.

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publications...tics/DH_085728

And that is straight from the NHS. 26 weeks!!!!

[CO2emission]

Great to see this discussion is still alive. Universal health care is fundamental to a civilised, respectful, caring and intelligent social order. Need I say more.

[Jolie]

Originally Posted by CO2emission

Great to see this discussion is still alive. Universal health care is fundamental to a civilised, respectful, caring and intelligent social order. Need I say more.

So am I to understand that the U.S. is not "a civilised, respectful, caring or intelligent social order?"

Makes one wonder why so many immigrants are beating down the door to get in.

[kjetski]

Originally Posted by CO2emission

Great to see this discussion is still alive. Universal health care is fundamental to a civilised, respectful, caring and intelligent social order. Need I say more.

A member from Oz? I see that Howard got replaced, how is that working out for ya'll? Granted I know little about Oz healthcare, I will find out real fast.

All I need to see is the % of GDP spent and one can estimate the quality.

In reality healthcare is simple. It is a service. It is not a right, it has nothing to do with naturual law, and it has to be paid for. If we create an unlimited demand for a limited product the price will go up (please read "Free to Choose" by Milton and Rose Freidman). Americans (of course) have made the rational choice to use the price mechanism; while euro-trash surrender monkeys use the "que". As a follow on to the aforementioned book one needs to read "Capitalism and Freedom" and "Tyranny of the Status Quo" both by Milton/Rose Freidman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

I believe that there is an online presentation of his famous series "Free to Choose" and a follow on by his son David.

In his book, The Machinery of Freedom, Friedman developed a form of anarcho-capitalism where all goods and services including law itself can be produced by the free market. This differs from the version proposed by Murray Rothbard, where a legal code would first be consented to by the parties involved in setting up the anarcho-capitalist society. Friedman advocates an incrementalist approach to achieve anarcho-capitalism by gradual privatization of areas that government is involved in, ultimately privatizing law and order itself.
This version of anarcho-capitalism has been called the "Chicago School" version[2]. Friedman's version of individualist anarchism is not based on the assumption of inviolable natural rights but rather rests on a cost/benefit analysis of state versus no state.[3]

David is kind of a nut.....

[kjetski]

Originally Posted by Jolie

So am I to understand that the U.S. is not "a civilised, respectful, caring or intelligent social order?"

Makes one wonder why so many immigrants are beating down the door to get in.

Spot on Jolie,

If we put gates on every country on earth and opened them; where would all of the people run to? China? North Korea? Cuba?

[Ludlow]

Originally Posted by kjetski

A member from Oz? I see that Howard got replaced, how is that working out for ya'll? Granted I know f-all about Oz healthcare, I will find out real fast.

All I need to see is the % of GDP spent and one can estimate the quality.

In reality healthcare is simple. It is a service. It is not a right, it has nothing to do with naturual law, and it has to be paid for. If we create an unlimited demand for a limited product the price will go up (please read "Free to Choose" by Milton and Rose Freidman). Americans (of course) have made the rational choice to use the price mechanism; while euro-trash surrender monkeys use the "que". As a follow on to the aforementioned book one needs to read "Capitalism and Freedom" and "Tyranny of the Status Quo" both by Milton/Rose Freidman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

I believe that there is an online presentation of his famous series "Free to Choose" and a follow on by his son David.

In his book, The Machinery of Freedom, Friedman developed a form of anarcho-capitalism where all goods and services including law itself can be produced by the free market. This differs from the version proposed by Murray Rothbard, where a legal code would first be consented to by the parties involved in setting up the anarcho-capitalist society. Friedman advocates an incrementalist approach to achieve anarcho-capitalism by gradual privatization of areas that government is involved in, ultimately privatizing law and order itself.
This version of anarcho-capitalism has been called the "Chicago School" version[2]. Friedman's version of individualist anarchism is not based on the assumption of inviolable natural rights but rather rests on a cost/benefit analysis of state versus no state.[3]

David is kind of a nut.....

I guess you have not noticed that our American economy, based on Friedman and the Chicago School is in the crapper. We have been on an expensive experiment but are now in real terms and at the cost of real lives proving that Friedman's ideas and Reagonomics leads to disaster. Mourn if you must for unregulated capitalism, but it is dead.

Along with it is unbridled greed in our health care system. The insurers likewise have been the architects of their own demise. We have given them more than an arm and a leg and they have delayed, denied and thwarted necessary care. We are tired of their obstructionism and greed. We want a system like HR 676, expanded and improved Medicare for All.

As for the British National Health system, at least all are covered with some kind of care. The poorest Brit has a longer life expectancy than the richest American, simply because they have access to health care. I have a friend who has duel citizenship. She does not have insurance here. She works for a company that does not offer it and does not make enough to be able to afford individual premiums (over $500/month). But if she gets sick, she at least can go 'home' and get the care she needs. She figures she will retire in England specifically for the purpose of not having to worry about medicines and care.

[herring_RN]

While the U.S. Spends Heavily on Health Care, a Study Faults the Quality

American medical care may be the most expensive in the world, but that does not mean it is worth every penny.
A study to be released Thursday highlights the stark contrast between what the United States spends on its health system and the quality of care it delivers, especially when compared with many other industrialized nations.

...The report, the second national scorecard from this influential health policy research group, shows that the United States spends more than twice as much on each person for health care as most other industrialized countries.
But it has fallen to last place among those countries in preventing deaths through use of timely and effective medical care, according to the report by the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit research group in New York. ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/bu...tml?ref=health

[harvey Rabbit]

In the United States we have constitutional rights such as free speech and entitlement rights such as everyone entitled to an education. Universal Healthcare would fall into entitlement rights. People are dying because they can't get the healthcare that they need. The healthcare system we have now does not work. I can not believe that anyone in the healthcare profession would not support some type of healthcare that would include everyone. Are we placing value on a persons life simply because he or she can afford insurance? The medical technology may be available but it is available only to those that can afford it and that my friends is wrong.