[fronkey bean]

Originally Posted by Miss_Chybil

Well, I accidentally hit the "thanks" button, instead of the "quote" button. You can be sure I did not mean to thank you for this post. I meant to ask you how sick people made bad choices. Sure, some have. Some people don't eat right, or some people smoke and do drugs, or drink. But, exactly what bad choice did my mother make when she got breast cancer and her insurance premiums went up to over $1,000.00 per month? (Which happens to be more than 50% of her income.)

What bad choice did my sister-in-law make when she was diagnosed with diabetes and now she can't buy insurance at any price. (She used to have it through her employer. Now, she has a different job and with a small business owner who tried to purchase insurance for her, but was refused because of her diabetes.) What bad choice did the working class parents of a child with leukemia make? I suppose it was that they settled for jobs without health insurance. What bad choice did the factory worker make, who had health insurance before they shipped his job overseas and what bad choice are you going to make when some day, for one reason, or another, beyond your control you need more insurance than you've got, or you've been canceled because of some strange, but all too common, diagnosis?

I will be asking the moderator if there is any way to remove the accidental thanks I gave you. I hope there is. I really do. In the meantime, I'd like to see your data for all the Canadians and Englishmen who have been breaking down our borders for healthcare. You might also look at how many Americans buy their prescription drugs in Canada because they can't afford them here.

One of the reasons insurance premiums are so high for everyone is the huge payouts insurance co.s have to pay for people whose lifestyle - smoking, overeating, lack of exercise, high risk sports, excessive alcohol, etc - have led to chronic and expensive illnesses. When insurance co.s have to spend a lot of money on these kinds of cases then they pass the cost on to all consumers including, unfortunately, your mom.

Originally Posted by icyounurse

Wow, I can't believe someone actually posted that people from Canada and England seek healthcare in the U.S.......
excuse me while I die laughing---hahahahahahhttp://allnurses.com/forums/images/s...added/w00t.gif



puh-lease people. Our health care system is not among the top of industrialized nations by any means. Do some research. And seriously if I was in Canada and I could just go to the doctor when I was sick, why in the world would I cross the border so i could pay tons of $$$$ for the same care I would receive for free back home???Actually statistically their care in Canada is somewhat better. Their infant mortality rate is lower than ours and their life expectancy is longer(gasp)
And no, their nurses salaries are not lower than ours. Check out their statistics here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...stems_compared

If you look under Health care outcomes you will see Canadians live 2 and 1/2 years longer than us. Why do Americans get so arrogant defending our horrible healthcare system when we need to be getting together and trying to change it?

They come here to avoid the waits it sometimes takes to get routine tests done there, at least the rich do. The poor get stuck in line waiting, kind of like they do here.
Your statistics are alittle misleading. While Canadians do live a little longer than Americans, if you check out the WHO wbsite (sorry I'm computer illiterate and don't know how to put it in my post) you'll find that many more Americans die young due to violence which somewhat skews the stats.

Originally Posted by icyounurse

Amen sister. And actually not everyone who is uninsured is so because they have "made bad choices". Me and my husband recently moved and are starting new jobs and it takes 30 days to get the insurance. If you are in an accident or get cancer or something in the meantime? Oh well. I think the whole system has some major flaws personally.

While I am generally in favor of out current sytem, this is one thing that certainly needs fixing. I would like to see one candidate on either side propose someway for people in transition (either changeing jobs, going to school or searching for a new job after being downsized) to keep their insurance at their current rate until they are once again covered under a new policy. No one can afford COBRA payments. Also, there should be a better system for those w/ jobs that have no or poor insurance to affordably supplement their insurance.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by scottlgarrett

Look at the VA healthcare system, or MEDICARE,
both are basically "Universal healthcare" and the care that the patients get is often
sub-standare by normal consumer standards.

This is an assertion not supported by evidence:

Over the last decade or two, the VHA system has become a worldwide leader in both the adoption and the invention of health-information technology, and it has leveraged its innovations into quantifiable gains in quality of care. As Harvard's Kennedy School noted when awarding the VHA its prestigious Innovations in American Government prize:

[The] VHA's complete adoption of electronic health records and performance measures have resulted in high-quality, low-cost health care with high patient satisfaction. A recent RAND study found that VHA outperforms all other sectors of American health care across the spectrum of 294 measures of quality in disease prevention and treatment. For six straight years, VHA has led private-sector health care in the independent American Customer Satisfaction Index.

Indeed, the VHA's lead in care quality isn't disputed. A New England Journal of Medicine study from 2003 compared the VHA with fee-for-service Medicare on 11 measures of quality. The VHA came out "significantly better" on every single one. The Annals of Internal Medicine pitted the VHA against an array of managed-care systems to see which offered the best treatment for diabetics. The VHA triumphed in all seven of the tested metrics. The National Committee for Quality Assurance, meanwhile, ranks health plans on 17 different care metrics, from hypertension treatment to adherence to evidence-based treatments. As Phillip Longman, the author of Best Care Anywhere, a book chronicling the VHA's remarkable transformation, explains: "Winning NCQA's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose is the highest ranking health care system? Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the veterans health care system outperforms the highest-rated non-VHA hospitals."

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...lth_of_nations

[jojotoo]

Scottlgarrett - my "thanks" was on purpose. I am opposed to government run Universal Health Care. Unfortunately, no matter what the system, there will always be a few that fall through the gaps.

To Miss Chybil - regarding your sister-in-law that changed jobs and now can't get coverage because of her diabetes. Now she has a pre-existing condition. I thought that was what HIPAA was for. Go to www.dol.gov and select Health Plans and Benefits for additional info.

And for the uninsured parents of a child with leukemia - we already have government programs in place for catastrophic illnesses.

Factory workers whose jobs are shipped overseas? Then they are going to have to get another job - no matter what. They'll still have to feed, house, clothe themselves. I don't think that it is unreasonable that they also take care of their own healthcare.

And for your mom, I'm sincerely sorry for the burden that this must be for her. Her healthcare insurance is now $1000 per month? At this time she is not one of the charities that I choose to contribute to. I think that her family and those that volunteer to do so should be assisting paying that bill. Please do not force me to. I have enough responsibilities with my own family. And I am not asking that others help me with those responsibilities. And if it ever gets to the point that I need help, then I will ask it of my family, my friends, my church, or volunteer organizations. I will not attempt to force strangers to assist me.

To Icyounurse: Congratulations on your relocation. I hope that you will be happy and profitable in your new home. In the meantime, please do not ask me to pay your health insurance - that's what Cobra is for. Cobra is too expensive? Mmm, then maybe a second job is in order - just like I have to have to pay my bills.

The following statement is not directed towards anyone on this board - it's just a general statement to the world: Please! Stop asking for my money. It's MY money. I worked for it. I earned it. I'll decide what I want to do with it and who I want to give it to. If YOU want money, then you must work (and work hard), just like I have to.

I'm probably a little extra annoyed about this subject right now, because I just did my taxes. And before I was done, I was vomiting and having palpatations. I love this country. I'm proud to live here and I'm grateful to live here. But what I have to pay in taxes - federal, state, personal property, etc. is OBSCENE!

[jojotoo]

Originally Posted by happyloser

Health Care in my opinion is a right everyone should have.

It is our right as citizens of the free world to have a system where everyone can benefit from.

As far as I'm concerned, it is your "right" to stay in school and get an education, not to be a drop-out, not to get pregnant, not to become a substance abuser (of any kind) and then GET A JOB and pay for whatever you want - healthcare, fancy cars, trips to Vegas, steak and caviar every night for dinner - whatever you choose, with the money you have earned.

I'm also not opposed to you spending inherited money or lottery winnings as you see fit.

[HM2Viking]

The myth of Tort costs:

No evidence of significant effects on health care costs
The cost of medical malpractice claims and litigation is so small a part of national health care expenditures as to be insignificant—even as calculated by Towers Perrin, which indicates its tort cost estimates (Chimerine and Eisenbrey 2005). According to Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs, broadly defined to include the costs of insurance industry overhead (including profits) and claims handling, as well as all claims paid without litigation, totaled $28.7 billion in 2004, only 1.5% of the nation’s $1.9 trillion bill for health expenditures. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) concludes that “even a reduction of 25 percent to 30 percent in malpractice costs would lower health care costs by only about 0.4 to 0.5 percent” (CBO 2004, 6). To put the insignificance of this into context, health care inflation in 2004 would have been 7.8% instead of 8.2%.

If, as Towers Perrin has claimed, damages awarded to plaintiffs are 46% of total tort costs (Tillinghast-Towers Perrin 2003, 17), and non-economic damages are about half of all damages awarded to plaintiffs, then fully eliminating noneconomic damages in medical malpractice (and the attorney fees associated with them) would have a negligible effect on U.S. health expenditures, reducing them by 0.5% or less.5 It follows logically that legislative changes like those recently debated in Congress that would cap such damages at $250,000 would have an even smaller effect.

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp174

[icyounurse]

Originally Posted by jojotoo

Scottlgarrett - my "thanks" was on purpose. I am opposed to government run Universal Health Care. Unfortunately, no matter what the system, there will always be a few that fall through the gaps.

To Miss Chybil - regarding your sister-in-law that changed jobs and now can't get coverage because of her diabetes. Now she has a pre-existing condition. I thought that was what HIPAA was for. Go to www.dol.gov and select Health Plans and Benefits for additional info.

And for the uninsured parents of a child with leukemia - we already have government programs in place for catastrophic illnesses.

Factory workers whose jobs are shipped overseas? Then they are going to have to get another job - no matter what. They'll still have to feed, house, clothe themselves. I don't think that it is unreasonable that they also take care of their own healthcare.

And for your mom, I'm sincerely sorry for the burden that this must be for her. Her healthcare insurance is now $1000 per month? At this time she is not one of the charities that I choose to contribute to. I think that her family and those that volunteer to do so should be assisting paying that bill. Please do not force me to. I have enough responsibilities with my own family. And I am not asking that others help me with those responsibilities. And if it ever gets to the point that I need help, then I will ask it of my family, my friends, my church, or volunteer organizations. I will not attempt to force strangers to assist me.

To Icyounurse: Congratulations on your relocation. I hope that you will be happy and profitable in your new home. In the meantime, please do not ask me to pay your health insurance - that's what Cobra is for. Cobra is too expensive? Mmm, then maybe a second job is in order - just like I have to have to pay my bills.

The following statement is not directed towards anyone on this board - it's just a general statement to the world: Please! Stop asking for my money. It's MY money. I worked for it. I earned it. I'll decide what I want to do with it and who I want to give it to. If YOU want money, then you must work (and work hard), just like I have to.

I'm probably a little extra annoyed about this subject right now, because I just did my taxes. And before I was done, I was vomiting and having palpatations. I love this country. I'm proud to live here and I'm grateful to live here. But what I have to pay in taxes - federal, state, personal property, etc. is OBSCENE!

Um, excuse me did I say anything about you paying my bills? Funny, I don't think I did. I was just trying to make the point that there are not any very good programs in place for people transitioning from jobs or out of school/moving ect. And COBRA? Puh-lease. If you want to pay 700$ a month for insurance when you are healthy and young, you go right ahead.But I am not rich and 700$ is alot of money for me right now. Personally I think its a huge rip off. But I would like to point out that if I got into trouble with my health while uninsured I never said I wouldnt pay for it. I just think there needs to be a better system. If you are naive enough or well off enough to think the current system is the best, I really hope life never deals you a bad hand and puts you without insurance.

[scottlgarrett]

Does anyone believe that our government will do any better with a national healthcare plan than they have done with social security? It is just going to be more money out of our paychecks and into the hands of the politicians. Socialism is not an American value.

[Noryn]

We simply pay too much in taxes not to receive universal healthcare. We waste too much money as well, if we have money to pay for wars, bridges to no where, museums for Woodstock, endless studies at universities, etc then we have enough to pay for healthcare for our citizens. Actually I can think of nothing more important than good health so it should be the number one priority.

As long as the lobbyists are in charge though it wont happen. Our system is broke, we spend more than other countries and receive worse results as far as healthcare goes. Our working poor and middle class are getting hammered. One major accident and say hello to a bankruptcy.

Again we just pay so much in taxes many cannot afford healthcare on their own. As a nurse I cannot count the number of patients I saw who waited until they received Medicare to get care so it has to be a lot better than nothing at all.

[jojotoo]

HM2Viking: I was unable to quote your post (technical problem?), but if I understand it correctly, you are citing a study that compares VHA to Medicare and other "managed care systems". And VA came out ahead. Is this the same VA that in recent years has been the subject of 60 Minutes investigations? I only know a few nurses that work for the VA, and the stories they tell don't sound any better than stories I hear about other hospitals.

I was unfamiliar with NCQA and had to look it up. NCQA states that it is a private not-for-profit organization. I was unable to ascertain how they were funded. Are they like JCAHO (which basically extorts money from hospitals)? I know that if you speak to most nurses and doctors, they will say that patient care has not improved with JCAHO.
Would the same nurses and doctors say the same about NCQA and their studies and guidelines? This is an honest question that I invite responses to - I don't know the answer.

I would like to see some studies that compare outcomes from managed care to outomes from private health insurance.

[jojotoo]

Originally Posted by scottlgarrett

Socialism is not an American value.