[HM2Viking]

From The American Prospect:
Indeed, we have brand new data. The Commonwealth Fund just released a broad survey collecting health care attitudes and experiences from patients in Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Here are summaries of some of the findings:


1. We spend the most. We spend more than any other country in the world. In 2005, our per capita -- so, per person -- spending was $6,697. The next highest in the study was Canada, at $3,326. And remember -- that's "mean" spending, so it's the amount we spend divided by our population. But unlike in Canada, about 16 percent of our population doesn't have insurance, and so often can't use the system. These facts should set the stage for all numbers that come after: Every time you see a data point in which were dead last, or not leading the pack, remember that we spend twice as much as any of our competitors.
2. We don't pay doctors according to the quality of their care.
3. Our wait times are low because many of us aren't getting care at all.
...
In just the past year, a full 25 percent of us didn't visit the doctor when sick because we couldn't afford it. Twenty-three percent skipped a test, treatment, or follow-up recommended by a doctor. Another 23 percent didn't fill a prescription. No other country is even close to this sort of income-based rationing.
...
4. Most of us don't have a regular physician.
5. Our care isn't particularly convenient.
6. Our doctors don't listen to us.
7. We have high rates of chronic conditions.
8. … But we're not treating them properly.
9. We're frequent victims of medical, medication, and lab errors.
10. Most of us are dissatisfied with our current system.
Source: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...care_is_so_bad accessed 11/4/2007.

Each of these points addresses health care disparities that are driven through a poorly designed system. The full text of the article is available here: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...care_is_so_bad .

[CRNA2007]

#1 Liberals try and manage it.

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

From The American Prospect:
Indeed, we have brand new data. The Commonwealth Fund just released a broad survey collecting health care attitudes and experiences from patients in Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Here are summaries of some of the findings:


1. We spend the most. We spend more than any other country in the world. In 2005, our per capita -- so, per person -- spending was $6,697. The next highest in the study was Canada, at $3,326. And remember -- that's "mean" spending, so it's the amount we spend divided by our population. But unlike in Canada, about 16 percent of our population doesn't have insurance, and so often can't use the system. These facts should set the stage for all numbers that come after: Every time you see a data point in which were dead last, or not leading the pack, remember that we spend twice as much as any of our competitors.
2. We don't pay doctors according to the quality of their care.
3. Our wait times are low because many of us aren't getting care at all.
...
In just the past year, a full 25 percent of us didn't visit the doctor when sick because we couldn't afford it. Twenty-three percent skipped a test, treatment, or follow-up recommended by a doctor. Another 23 percent didn't fill a prescription. No other country is even close to this sort of income-based rationing.
...
4. Most of us don't have a regular physician.
5. Our care isn't particularly convenient.
6. Our doctors don't listen to us.
7. We have high rates of chronic conditions.
8. … But we're not treating them properly.
9. We're frequent victims of medical, medication, and lab errors.
10. Most of us are dissatisfied with our current system.
Source: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...care_is_so_bad accessed 11/4/2007.

Each of these points addresses health care disparities that are driven through a poorly designed system. The full text of the article is available here: http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...care_is_so_bad .

[HM2Viking]

How was this a productive comment? The evidence shows that we have problems in the US. The evidence also shows that the countries with single payer plans produce better results for their populace.

[ebear]

Oh, No...He's baaack! Is it possible to comment without making this an issue of "liberals"?
ebear

[Jolie]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

How was this a productive comment?

Honest debate requires sourced data. quote from HM2Viking in following thread:

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/maj...-258724-7.html

Unless I have missed something, the TOS of allnurses.com do not require posted comments to be "productive" or to reference "sourced data". This is a message board, not a high-school debate team. There are many posters who find "cut and paste" responses tiresome, lacking originality and biased, and prefer lively debate based on our peers' experiences, thoughts and beliefs. If you are not interested in the content of these posts, please simply scroll past them, and let the rest of us have our fun. Thanks!

[chris_at_lucas_RN]

I guess some of us are a little tired of the constant complaining about the US health care system.

The fact is, it is available, and it is cheap. Most of us do very well with the care we get. Most of us with chronic conditions have gotten those because we insisted on continuing with lifestyle and habits that lend themselves to those problems. We have, for example, used alcohol and or drugs and overeaten, and gotten ourselves a good case of diabetes type 2, and most of us cannot be bothered with good care and weight loss once we are diagnosed.

We smoke, less now than before, but in increasing numbers among our youth. We are lazy and do not cook, relying on fast food and buffets. We must, after all, get our money's worth! So we not only pig out, we pig out on the stuff that will raise our LDL and put that nice belt of fat around our middle.

As for quality of health care, I think we would do well to train our nurses and physicians better in this country. I have left a couple of positions because I could not stand to watch the poor care I saw--and, I'm sorry, and I am not interested in being attacked here, I am reporting WHAT I HAVE PERSONALLY OBSERVED AND EXPERIENCED, the poorest care came not from US trained nurses but from imports whose cultures do not mesh very well with ours. There is neither time nor space, nor interest on my part, to go into much detail, but we all know what we are talking about here.

We have nursing schools where it is legend that "instructors eat their young." Our high attrition rates turn perfectly good nursing students away. If those students were substandard, they could not have gotten in in the first place. The high attrition rates come about because of the sick personalities of the instructors and administrators of those programs WHERE THIS IS A PROBLEM, and in turn lead to low numbers of US grads.

We have pharmaceutical companies that are making money hand over fist (check out their stocks and dividends!) all the while whining to the US government that they must have funding to support research. The benefits of that research that US residents (not just citizens) pay for with their taxes benefits the rest of the word. Many of the drug companies have located outside the US, so the money is funneled away. But that's another issue altogether isn't it?

I don't have insurance, but I take care of myself and I watch what I do. I'd like to have insurance and someday I probably will. In the meantime, no hospital will turn me away--and the hospital where I work does not turn away the uninsured!--but it can certainly happen elsewhere.

This is not as organized or well supported as I'd like, but I think my points are well taken, and if anyone else has the guts to put their two cents in--knowing full well we are going to be blasted for daring to disagree--I hope you do.

I, for one, am sick and tired of the grumbling about the "poor quality" health care in this country. I AM PART OF THAT HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, AND I GIVE GOOD THOUGHTFUL INTELLIGENT CARE.

Get out once in a while, go see with your own eyes (rather than grabbing up some research off the web or wherever), what the rest of the world is doing, and see how good you have got it.

There's a reason why we have an influx of "tourists" coming in and getting the free care. And it ain't because we are substandard.

[HM2Viking]

Chris:
The article was not an attack on nurses. It spoke to systemic problems as well as the perceptions of patients about US health care. I have no doubt that you are personally dedicated to giving good care. The care you give is influenced by how well the system functions as a whole. Accessibility and disparities are a real problem that we need to wrestle with as a society.

[HM2Viking]

accidental duplicate...

[CRNA2007]

Heres some sources for your reading

http://www.laughatliberals.com/blog/...ng-up-america/

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut?pid=22912

http://www.fraudwasteabuse.com/category/democrats/

http://www.gargaro.com/healthcare.html

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2...re-060104.html

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2092

http://www.deadfishwrapper.com/node/38

[jmgrn65]

People in Canada are dying, waiting on Heart Surgery.
No one system is perfect, at least we have healthcare and anyone can get it. Just go to the Emergency Room or to a clinic.

Some countries don't have insurance. So if you don't have the money you don't get it period!
So Frankly I don't think ours is so bad.
Yes I do agree the working poor and elderly need some kind of plan.