[TrudyRN]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

This is the LAND of opportunity. Others have the SAME opportunities as I do. There is NO reason why an able bodied person in this nation cannot be successful, unless they will not.

Me? I graduated H.S. with no money and parents unable to support me and a step father that greeted my diploma with the following: "So, when are you gonna get the bleep out of my house?"

I did. I joined the military. And I made my way from there.

I understand your sentiment. But you take away from me a long string of hard effort for me to get to my point in life by simply dismissing it as a 'lottery' of life.

There but by the Grace of God do NOT go I. The Grace of God: YES! But added TO THAT is alot of sweat and tears. I earned where I am at. Nobody has a right to blithely dismiss that.

And here's a secret: the more you press that such is the case for the majority of Americans, the more they will tune you out.

Oh, it's easy to make a case for class envy of the rich. But the more you go to reach down and make that case for anybody but those that don't work, the more you lose your argument.

And THAT is why gov't restricted healthcare will not happen in this nation anytime soon. It's NOT because you can't convince people of a safety net. No. It IS because you will not be able to convince them they deserve to feel guilty for their hard work and effort. Guilty enough, to let the gov't take it away from them.

It's a losing argument.

~faith,
Timothy.

Your stepfather was a stinker, true. What a jerk. And yes, you did get where you are by the sweat of your brow. Many of us have done it, as best we could. And those of us who were taught that we weren't supposed to work outside the home, those of us who were taught that we were supposed to be homemakers, wives, mothers, volunteers in the community, transmitters of culture to the next generation, and helpers of our husbands, those of us who have had to spend our entire adult lives working AND homemaking know the schizophrenia of having to do, every damned day, something that, after all these many years, is still foreign to our self-concept.

We have worked and worked, saved and lived frugally, stayed within our budget, not gotten so far into debt that we could not get out. We have been the pillars of our community, the cornerstone of our families, the reliable, sturdy employees of our hospitals. We have sacrificed sleep, family time, holidays, even our health so that we could provide for our families and ourselves. We care for aged parents, we live the way we were taught was upright and honorable. We provide for our retirement years so as not to burden our children. Don't think, Tim, that we don't know where you are coming from.

But there are others of our fellow citizens who are less capable of self-care because of physical and/or mental infirmities, some self-inflicted, some God's decree. I don't think anyone is dismissing your accomplishments. We can probably relate to you pretty well, as we have done the same thing - we faced up to being poor and we did something about it. We worked, we lived honorable lives.

BTW, I want to thank you for your military service.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by TrudyRN

While I too am reluctant to totally trash what little bit remains of our precious, already gasping-their-last American freedoms, I think it is ironic that Jefferson, whom you quote, was a slaveholder. He and so many of his compatriots didn't mind compromising the rights of their slaves so that he and his pals could live in freedom.

About your fear that you would have to relinquish your own freedom so that others might have a fair shot - I'm not sure just how it would all work, how a universal health care program would come about. Taxes, I guess. How do other countries do it? But I can't help but think that you are in the strongest group right now, i.e., those who are healthy enough to provide for yourselves by the sweat of your brow. You might think differently if you were less healthy, weaker, less able to keep the wolf from your door, Tim. Some people are born with better health than others, they avoid illnesses and injuries that cripple and lay others low. So many of my patients have illnesses, for instance, that render them basically shut down as early as their teen years. They can no more fend for themselves than can an infant. Same with those who, like yourself, work hard, build up their lives for years and years, then find that advancing age or a sudden catastrophe, not necessarily even of their own making, cuts the legs out from under them, so to speak.

As for you being a free man - just try not paying your taxes and you'll learn just how free you really are. I trust you have studied up on the alternative view of taxation, the Federal Reserve, our fiat paper money system, the pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, Vince Foster's so-called suicide, the magic JFK bullet, and 911 being an inside job. That is a fascinating study - alternative news views.

You have missed several of my points.

First, I disagree with the necessity to trade freedoms for 'a fair shot'. This nation provides every able-bodied person with an inherent 'fair shot' and those that aren't able bodied already have gov't programs designed to assist them (to the extent those programs fail, remember, gov't restricted healthcare will be run by the SAME people). In fact, because I understand that the best 'fair shot' for anybody is a free market, I am against socializing the economy BECAUSE it would deprive far too many from that 'fair shot'.

2nd, I'm not against a safety net. I'm against the idea that a safety net can only be brought about by socializing the economy.

3rd, I don't know why you think that stating that Jefferson and the founding fathers held slaves disables the social contracts that are our Constitution and Declaration of Independence. However, and since a thread was closed down after I brought this up in the past I have been reluctant to mention it again. But since YOU brought up the issue of slavery: forcing some, by threat of coercion, to labor for the benefit of others IS slavery. You seem to acknowledge this by stating that the necessity to pay taxes is an abrogation of freedom (while that IS partly true, I won't quibble over the point at this time). Should we therefore ADVOCATE slavery, so long as it brings about noble intentions? Maybe, it's a 'necessary evil'? Or, maybe, turning the tables, ala Sen John Calhoun, it's a 'positive good'?

I'm not saying this above is your intent. However, even YOU acknowledged that this concept is reflected within the thinking that gov't can tax at will, and should. Money is only a reflection of the labor that produces it. A gov't that believes itself free to tax at will is a gov't that believes that it 'owns' my labor.

4th: my problem with government restricted healthcare is not my current, relatively healthy situation. My problem with it is that for those that NEED that care, gov't restricted care is a worse solution. Equal access to a dismal system of restricted healthcare is not a good deal if you need those services.

You have to wonder why Canada had to come up with the maxim, "Equal access to a waiting list does not equate to equal access to care".

Castigate me if you like. I can live with that. But I have not dismissed the goal of providing better or even, more comprehensive care. I have just dismissed the goal of socialism disguised as morality. It's not. And it won't be. No matter what noble goals can or should be accomplished by 'necessary evils'. You can't make a deal with the devil and call it an answer to a prayer.

I think we all are better served leaving the concept of 'necessary evils' on the ash heaps of history.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by TrudyRN

I don't think anyone is dismissing your accomplishments.

Oh, but they are. You are coming into this debate late. It has taken place over several threads over the course of weeks.

Many have asserted that anybody over the poverty line has 'won life's lotto' which is a complete dismissal of the effort to attain that station. Many have tried to suggest that anybody not sleeping on the streets should feel guilty about their 'largesse'. Many have argued that, without complete redistribution of wealth, any relative better off person is guilty of unChristian uncharitableness if they don't submit to a level of taxation that equalizes outcomes.

Many have tried to argue that government restricted healthcare would be better and cheaper - but only attainable by the coercive hand of gov't.

Many have tried to argue that I am somehow mean spirited because I disagree that socialism is a better solution for the poor, or for healthcare. It's a neat sleight of hand. If I'm not for socialism, I'm immoral because of the poor children.

For the record, I made peace with the man before he died. He had his own demons, I hope he's found HIS peace.

~faith,
Timothy.

[Hopefull2009]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

The point of the original post was that she was able to receive high quality prompt care in Singapore. A careful reading of her diary reveals that her original Dr. in NC spent a fair amount of time on the phone essentially begging a gynecologist to see her on an urgent basis. She waited 8 days. In Singapore she was able to be seen almost immediately for a recurrence without the hassle of referral or prior approval. One of the usual objections to Universal Care is "waiting times." This persons experience showed that waiting happens in the US under our current system.

The thing is...she didn't have to wait 8 days, she could have went to the emergency room or she could have called to other OB's.

It was a CHOICE she made to not seek advice of another doctor, and that can happen in any country at any time. I am sure another one would have been happy to accept her insurance card if she had made the attempt, but she didn't do that.

Your post makes it sound like that is the "norm" in US Healthcare...and it is not. That is why doctor's carry malpractice insurance...because not all of them are good doctors and some of them make poor decisions.

[HM2Viking]

Except with insurance cost shifting we are all paying far more for the care of the uninsured than we would with a single payer system (Which costs less and achieves better overall outcomes for patients.) We are the congress since we elect people to represent our interests in Washington. Congress has broad powers under article 8 to legislate for the common welfare to meet the needs of states and their citizens. Occasionally we the people have to use our government collectively to fix societal problems and/or achieve societal goals. Sick, vacation and health insurance all came to be a part of the benefit packages for jobs through collective pressure on business and government. It is very legitimate for we the people to use the legislative process to address societal problems and concerns. Progressive solutions have been shown in general to work better to solve the problems of society. A strong set of workplace protections sick, vacation, health insurance etc., for workers will strengthen our society as a whole. If arrived at through democratic means we all have an obligation to follow the rule of law.

[Fuzzy]

Nope! Until healthcare and I don't mean just emergency room care (and ER care is definately NOT AFFORDABLE), is available and affordable to all we are not the best in the world. If you have a disability or pre-existing condition, choose to work, not be on Social Security, you cannot get health insurance unless you are fortunate to work for a large corperation who we provide it for you as a JOB benefit. It's sad that ILLEGAL ALIENS receive more affordable healthcare than citizens.
Yep the system is broken.

Fuzzy

[HM2Viking]

Taxes are the dues we all pay for living in a civilized society. I found the following which certainly seems like a call for social justice and health care for all people.

http://www.ncccusa.org/poverty/biblespeaks.html

<B><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#ff0000>Sa[quote]
turday, March 2 Proverbs 14:31– Those who oppress the poor insult their Maker, but those who are kind to the needy honor him.

Matthew 25:31-40
35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'

[tencat]

I'm suprised that no one has brought up the incredible cost of malpractice insurance for physicians. Depending on one's specialty, one can pay $60,000 in premiums PER YEAR (and probably more, that's just my personal knowledge of one physician's premium) And if a physician is sued, the premiums go higher. Physicians who practice in economically advantaged areas are more able to absorb the cost. But if one practices in a geographical area that is full of poverty, the cost is too much. I know of a couple of physicians in my small town who have quit working any specialty areas because they can't afford the premiums (and they don't drive Lexus or Mercedes, nor do they live in a huge house). If there were some kind of limits on frivolous lawsuits, maybe the price of healthcare would come down.

Much as I hate to admit it, we also need to tie welfare and medicare/medicaid to making the recipients responsible, contributing members of society. Instead of just handing out money and aid, we need to tie it to teaching work skills and work ethic. Sometimes there is a good reason why someone is unable to work (mental illness, physical illness), but there are a lot of mentally and physically able people who take aid but do not contribute back to society. Just in my little corner of the world there are so many things that need to be done that could become jobs for these people. That way they would get their aid, but they would also be providing a service to the community by cleaning up parks and roadways, for example. JMHO.

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally Posted by tencat

I'm suprised that no one has brought up the incredible cost of malpractice insurance for physicians. Depending on one's specialty, one can pay $60,000 in premiums PER YEAR (and probably more, that's just my personal knowledge of one physician's premium) And if a physician is sued, the premiums go higher. Physicians who practice in economically advantaged areas are more able to absorb the cost. But if one practices in a geographical area that is full of poverty, the cost is too much. I know of a couple of physicians in my small town who have quit working any specialty areas because they can't afford the premiums (and they don't drive Lexus or Mercedes, nor do they live in a huge house). If there were some kind of limits on frivolous lawsuits, maybe the price of healthcare would come down.

Much as I hate to admit it, we also need to tie welfare and medicare/medicaid to making the recipients responsible, contributing members of society. Instead of just handing out money and aid, we need to tie it to teaching work skills and work ethic. Sometimes there is a good reason why someone is unable to work (mental illness, physical illness), but there are a lot of mentally and physically able people who take aid but do not contribute back to society. Just in my little corner of the world there are so many things that need to be done that could become jobs for these people. That way they would get their aid, but they would also be providing a service to the community by cleaning up parks and roadways, for example. JMHO.

So long as no one is terminated from their job to great a "working for a welfare check" job I think this is a great idea.
We need levees in all our flood plains, earthquake retrofitting, and other infrastructure repair. We need child care workers, police, nurses, and farm workers. Why not give a tax break to employers who hire people who are on welfare? And have a modern day WPA to pay people to do needed work?
Perhaps let workers keep their Medicaid until and unless employer health insurance is in effect?

We once had a $30.00 and $30% where people who got jobs got a welfare check with the amount of their wages deducted. except for either $30.00 or 30%. To get to keep 30% the worker had to pay that money for child care or transportation such as bus fare to work.
For job training child care was paid and up to $30.00 a month. I know many who earned their LVN this way because there was a 1 year limit on this before being put to work.
Working is so much better than just just getting a check.

[ingelein]

Originally Posted by TrudyRN

Your stepfather was a stinker, true. What a jerk. And yes, you did get where you are by the sweat of your brow. Many of us have done it, as best we could. And those of us who were taught that we weren't supposed to work outside the home, those of us who were taught that we were supposed to be homemakers, wives, mothers, volunteers in the community, transmitters of culture to the next generation, and helpers of our husbands, those of us who have had to spend our entire adult lives working AND homemaking know the schizophrenia of having to do, every damned day, something that, after all these many years, is still foreign to our self-concept.

We have worked and worked, saved and lived frugally, stayed within our budget, not gotten so far into debt that we could not get out. We have been the pillars of our community, the cornerstone of our families, the reliable, sturdy employees of our hospitals. We have sacrificed sleep, family time, holidays, even our health so that we could provide for our families and ourselves. We care for aged parents, we live the way we were taught was upright and honorable. We provide for our retirement years so as not to burden our children. Don't think, Tim, that we don't know where you are coming from.

But there are others of our fellow citizens who are less capable of self-care because of physical and/or mental infirmities, some self-inflicted, some God's decree. I don't think anyone is dismissing your accomplishments. We can probably relate to you pretty well, as we have done the same thing - we faced up to being poor and we did something about it. We worked, we lived honorable lives.

BTW, I want to thank you for your military service.

Trudy, SO SO true.I have felt that some posters, believe that despite having worked HARD for almost 30 years, it still was my own fault that I can no longer work and that I did not "TRY" hard enough, or whatever. Life DOES have a way of turning even the best most well planned life on its head. Catastrophies DO happen to good people, people who were once the hardworkers. What would the truly disabled, the elderly whose savings were depleted by one of life's dirty tricks, do? The streets would be full of homeless, sick people, I think we might look like Calcutta.I thank God that our government is one that does place some value on their citizens health and well being, not perfect by any strech, but CAN be improved.Those who think they are insulated from life's dirty tricks, by "perfect" planning, think again.