[KellNY]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

And yet, strangely enough, NONE of these benefits came as a result of me expecting Uncle Daddy to take it from someone else, at the threat of jailtime.

I am not merely fortunate, although, I AM fortunate. But, I planned and worked my tail off to be in the position I'm in. It's so easy to discount that fact while you're divising ways to take the rewards of my hard earned labor AWAY from me and my family.

A whole heckuva lotta of 'luck' is planning in disguise. We do nobody favors by teaching them that ain't so.

~faith,
Timothy.

Do you realize that to have been able to do all this "planning" (which included not only planning, but actions taken on your part and others) that you had reserves? You had opportunities. Others may not have had these things.

One is to assume that since you are a nurse, you have graduated from some kind of college/university. In order to have done that, you posess some intelligence. You either had money to pay for college or you had credit good enough (or a cosigner who's credit was good enough) to have secured a loan and/or you were able to obtain a scholarship. If you had children while you attended college, you had people in your life willing and able to care for them. You either lived in close proximity to a college (ie walking distance or on the public transportation line) or you had the resources of a car or the extra money for taxis/trains/etc.

Not everyone has these things. Maybe it's not luck. But so many of us are born into privilege (race/class/socio-economic status/intelligence/social support/etc) and we have such a hard time admitting that. Do you realize that? Honest question.

[pickledpepperRN]

I hope those who believe they have planned well are able to continue if they are too sick to work for a long period of time.
When COBRA runs out an no company will insure you?
You have no paycheck and feel too sick to advocate for yourself or to think well enough to plan well anymore.
Too sick from chemo or other medication to remember to pay your bills.
I've seen all too many patients and hospital workers go through similar.

I don't want anyone else destitute because of a prolonged disabling illness.
I can see the faces of those I cared for with ALS, MS, and cancer who once had a good job, insurance, owned their home, and paid their bills. I remember their spouses and children who would have to try to pay those bills after they were gone.

See now it is easy for a corporation to declare bankruptcy but not an individual. They give you a HSA, debit card, or credit. Then you can lose your home trying to pay medical bills for yourself or your child.

I heard a song with the line:

"No insurance just buys a little sympathy
Shame on you, and shame on me"

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

I don't doubt that, at all.

You just won't GET what you want by the means of gov't. I don't doubt your veracity, simply your means.

Free markets have given the most people the most opportunity to move up in the world. Period.

I'm not against your proposed safety nets nearly so much as I'm opposed to the cost you intend to impose on ME to achieve it. I'm not talking about increased taxes, which are bad enough, but decreased care and decreased access to care.

If this were merely a discussion about 'safety nets', it would be a different discussion. Instead, this is about creating a socialist utopia. Such a beast doesn't exist. It never has. It never will.

I'm not opposed to your goals, per se. I'm staunchly opposed to your means because they WILL NOT WORK. And I don't intend to have that proven on the backs of yet another failed socialist system, a system that gov't stormtroopers require me to take part in.

If your utopia is so grand, then why do you need the full and coercive force of government to make it so? Why is because, in order to bring it about, you intend to take away from the many in order to give to the few. And you don't intend to take away a little. You intend to take everything away but what Uncle Daddy will allow us to keep.

Uncle Daddy doesn't have the RIGHT to make such determinations. And, neither does anybody else. I am a free man, with God given natural rights that not incidentally, are protected by the Constitution.

THIS is what Jefferson said about gov't that feel that THEY hold the rights of the people at their command, instead of those rights being Natural Laws:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

And, that is just what we did, organizing said gov't in a way so as to deny it the power to do what you suggest.

~faith,
Timothy.

No one is advocating "uncle daddy" or "storm troopers"

I do believe that it is the right of the people to alter our government as we did when we created Social Security insurance and Medicare.
I hope all people live a long natural life but am glad SS survivers benefits help provide for the children who don't.

I am not discussing taking away your money or choice in healthcare provider.
I just think those who take millions and provide NO CARE need to be doing productive work.
I am not interested in debate. I care about action because our healthcare is a disaster.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

See now it is easy for a corporation to declare bankruptcy but not an individual.

On at least THIS point, we agree: the gov't was wrong to tighten bankruptcy law. THAT isn't a case of free market, but of neo-mercantilism: companies using the power of gov't to get a competitive advantage off the backs of the people.

If credit card and home lenders REALLY want to reduce bankruptcy, they'd stop handing out candy easy credit and then wonder why people get overloaded.

I'd stop getting 10 credit card apps in the mail a week.

No, they didn't want to tighten the front door into debt, only the back door out.

But see, this does tie into this discussion. Be it socialism or neo-mercantilism, those that wish to use the gov't to do their bidding against the people do NOT have the people's interests at heart.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by KellNY

You had opportunities. Others may not have had these things.

This is the LAND of opportunity. Others have the SAME opportunities as I do. There is NO reason why an able bodied person in this nation cannot be successful, unless they will not.

Me? I graduated H.S. with no money and parents unable to support me and a step father that greeted my diploma with the following: "So, when are you gonna get the bleep out of my house?"

I did. I joined the military. And I made my way from there.

I understand your sentiment. But you take away from me a long string of hard effort for me to get to my point in life by simply dismissing it as a 'lottery' of life.

There but by the Grace of God do NOT go I. The Grace of God: YES! But added TO THAT is alot of sweat and tears. I earned where I am at. Nobody has a right to blithely dismiss that.

And here's a secret: the more you press that such is the case for the majority of Americans, the more they will tune you out.

Oh, it's easy to make a case for class envy of the rich. But the more you go to reach down and make that case for anybody but those that don't work, the more you lose your argument.

And THAT is why gov't restricted healthcare will not happen in this nation anytime soon. It's NOT because you can't convince people of a safety net. No. It IS because you will not be able to convince them they deserve to feel guilty for their hard work and effort. Guilty enough, to let the gov't take it away from them.

It's a losing argument.

~faith,
Timothy.

[Gromit]

Yes, I still say we have the best overall healthcare in the world. I have no idea how well regulated docs are in Singapore -and I'm sure they have some fine ones -so do we. Few weeks ago, I went into the ER c/o tachyarrhythmias. I was advised that I should have a defibrillator (ICD) and three days later, I was undergoing said procedure.
My wound has healed, there were absolutely no complications, and I can tell you what it feels like when the bloody thing "fires", too.
Yes, I have pretty good insurance. But when everyone is so keen on comparing costs here vs. elsewhere, do they bother to figure out what the average salaries are in the super-low-cost-countries? What good is it to say it only costs a hundred bucks, when it takes forever to raise that kind of scratch? Numbers that aren't weighted, cannot be compared.
And as for universal healthcare, before you get so excited about waiting lists, check out what the Fraser institute has to say on waiting lists by comparrison.
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared...sNav=pb&id=801

You don't get 'cadillac care' on 'volkswagen' prices. Lambaste the corporate system all you want, but advancements aren't cheap, and innovation isn't free.

[Gromit]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

I understand your sentiment. But you take away from me a long string of hard effort for me to get to my point in life by simply dismissing it as a 'lottery' of life.

There but by the Grace of God do NOT go I. The Grace of God: yes! But added TO THAT is alot of sweat and tears. I earned where I am at. Nobody has a right to blithely dismiss that.

And here's a secret: the more you press that such is the case for the majority of Americans, the more they will tune you out.

THAT is why socialism has such a bad name that it now has to be disguised with phrases such as progressive. THAT is why 'liberal' became a negative word in mainstream politics.

Oh, it's easy to make a case for class envy of the rich. But the more you go to reach down and make that case for anybody but those that don't work, the more you lose your argument.

And THAT is why universal healthcare will not happen in this nation anytime soon. It's NOT because you can't convince people of a safety net. No. It IS because you will not be able to convince them they deserve to feel guilty for their hard work and effort. Guilty enough, to let the gov't take it away from them.

It's a losing argument.

~faith,
Timothy.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. My folks WERE very supportive, but didn't have the resources to put me through college (and when I graduated highschool, I didn't have the drive to do so anyway -I went to work in the printing trade, hand-setting lead type.
NOTHING has been "GIVEN" to me -and to insinuate that I've won lifes' lottery is to insult me. I worked hard for what I have -and I'm STILL working hard to improve myself and the life of my wife and myself.
I am the kind of person who makes America run. The hardworking joe who isn't looking to the government for handouts or programs to take care of me. I may not have a lot, but what I've got is mine -and I got it honestly -through a lot of effort and hard work.
I've been uninsured, for years I pulled fuel for an outfit that didn't offer insurance, and didn't pay enough to buy insurance. But the thing is, EVEN WHILE I WAS UNINSURED, I felt the same way on that subject as I feel today.
Less government = more freedom -and possibly more risk, but THOSE two go hand in hand. I'll take freedom. My great grandfather didn't trust the government. My grandfather wanted nothing to do with them, my father was the same way and I'm proud to echo their sentiments.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by spacenurse

No one is advocating "uncle daddy" or "storm troopers"

I am not discussing taking away your money or choice in healthcare provider.

YOU'RE not advocating that. I agree.

But that doesn't mean 'nobody' is advocating that. Many on this thread, in fact, are.

It's not that I'm all that concerned about it though. Higher taxes is a dirty phrase in this nation. Walter Mondale said it, and came within 3800 votes, in his home state, from giving Reagan a clean electoral sweep. Hillary said it, and Bill spent the rest of his Presidency trying to put 'healthcare' behind him.

The most liberal politicians in office dare not breathe those dirty words: higher taxes. They bend over backwards to submit that they ONLY want to tax the rich, and not joe worker. But, gov't restricted healthcare requires joe worker to have a hardy tax increase. Try convincing the average American that huge tax increases are just a 'transfer' from insurance. Shoot, try convincing joe union worker that he should feel guilty and just give up his hard negotiated 'cadallac plan'.

In reality, what many advocate here will not just require new taxes, but a much greater phase of taxation. To accomplish that goal, they have adopted an attitude that Americans should and deserve to feel guilty about the hard work and effort they have invested in being successful. I just don't believe that is a winning formula.

See, YOU: you advocate a safety net. THAT is an idea that could be sold to the American people. In fact, I'm all for it. I just advocate that such decisions, of necessity - Constitutionally and practically - belong at the State level.

For others: they are advocating socializing our economy. Healthcare is just the next major step and merely a proxy argument, one they feel carries the most moral weight. If that safety net doesn't come with the attached string of socialism, then the argument, and opportunity, is lost.

Look at how many times in this discussion, over several threads, a few of the posters have widened this argument into a stated case for massive redistribution and equalization of wealth. THAT is the real agenda, for some.

But to MAKE that argument, they subsequently MUST argue that Americans should feel guilty about what they have earned. And so, the baby of safety nets goes out with the dirty bathwater of guilt-ridden, socialist driven politics.

I'm willing to entertain the idea of safety nets. I'm NOT willing to give the federal gov't dangerous powers to do so. I'm not willing to sacrifice my 'natural rights' to freedom and liberty. I'm not willing to destroy the economy to prove a well known fact: socialism is a failed ideology.

If that's what it takes to create a healthcare safety net, then the price is too high. For rich and poor alike.

~faith,
Timothy.

[sonoran]

I traveled to Singapore in the last couple of years and was very impressed. It is a very safe, clean, and advanced city. I hadn't known until my visit that it is a stunning example of a third-world country risen to a powerful first-world status just in the latter decades of the 20th century.

It does not surprise me that the OP had a great healthcare experience there. I think it would be wise for the U.S. to look around at other countries to see what works, what doesn't work, and what might work better.

[TrudyRN]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

I don't doubt that, at all.

You just won't GET what you want by the means of gov't. I don't doubt your veracity, simply your means.

Free markets have given the most people the most opportunity to move up in the world. Period.

I'm not against your proposed safety nets nearly so much as I'm opposed to the cost you intend to impose on ME to achieve it. I'm not talking about increased taxes, which are bad enough, but decreased care and decreased access to care.

If this were merely a discussion about 'safety nets', it would be a different discussion. Instead, this is about creating a socialist utopia. Such a beast doesn't exist. It never has. It never will.

I'm not opposed to your goals, per se. I'm staunchly opposed to your means because they WILL NOT WORK. And I don't intend to have that proven on the backs of yet another failed socialist system, a system that gov't stormtroopers require me to take part in.

If your utopia is so grand, then why do you need the full and coercive force of government to make it so? Why is because, in order to bring it about, you intend to take away from the many in order to give to the few. And you don't intend to take away a little. You intend to take everything away but what Uncle Daddy will allow us to keep.

Uncle Daddy doesn't have the RIGHT to make such determinations. And, neither does anybody else. I am a free man, with God given natural rights that not incidentally, are protected by the Constitution.

THIS is what Jefferson said about gov't that feel that THEY hold the rights of the people at their command, instead of those rights being Natural Laws:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

And, that is just what we did, organizing said gov't in a way so as to deny it the power to do what you suggest.

~faith,
Timothy.

While I too am reluctant to totally trash what little bit remains of our precious, already gasping-their-last American freedoms, I think it is ironic that Jefferson, whom you quote, was a slaveholder. He and so many of his compatriots didn't mind compromising the rights of their slaves so that he and his pals could live in freedom.

About your fear that you would have to relinquish your own freedom so that others might have a fair shot - I'm not sure just how it would all work, how a universal health care program would come about. Taxes, I guess. How do other countries do it? But I can't help but think that you are in the strongest group right now, i.e., those who are healthy enough to provide for yourselves by the sweat of your brow. You might think differently if you were less healthy, weaker, less able to keep the wolf from your door, Tim. Some people are born with better health than others, they avoid illnesses and injuries that cripple and lay others low. So many of my patients have illnesses, for instance, that render them basically shut down as early as their teen years. They can no more fend for themselves than can an infant. Same with those who, like yourself, work hard, build up their lives for years and years, then find that advancing age or a sudden catastrophe, not necessarily even of their own making, cuts the legs out from under them, so to speak.

As for you being a free man - just try not paying your taxes and you'll learn just how free you really are. I trust you have studied up on the alternative view of taxation, the Federal Reserve, our fiat paper money system, the pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, Vince Foster's so-called suicide, the magic JFK bullet, and 911 being an inside job. That is a fascinating study - alternative news views.