[horsenurse25]

Well, a quick google search on every level points it out.

Does it surprise you know that the World Health Organizaion puts the US at 37th for quality of health?? We spend 37% of our gdp and rank 37th. Canada is 30th. the UK is 18th and they spend only 6% od their gdp. Here are some rankings. The US is nowhere to be found.
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom


And how about education?
The US is 18th.
Here are these rankings put out by UNICEF

. South Korea 1.4
2. Japan 2.2
3. Finland 4.4
4. Canada 5.0
5. Australia 6.2
6. Austria 8.2
7. Britain 9.4
8. Ireland 10.2
9. Sweden 10.8
10. Czech Republic 12.2
11. New Zealand 12.2
12. France 12.6
13. Switzerland 13.0
14. Belgium 14.0
15. Iceland 14.0
16. Hungary 14.2
17. Norway 14.2
18. United States 16.2

The UN Human Development index 2006 puts the US at 8th.

In a global report of 'best cities to live in' the highest level a US city got was27th.

And we could go on and on.

Again, I love this country, but there is a big world out there...

[ingelein]

Originally Posted by horsenurse25

Well, many would disagree with you on that. And the concept of LIMITED is subjective I suppose.

The United States is no longer the most prosperous and powerful nation in the world. And the ranking on almost every level (education, health, life expectancy, standard of living) is slipping every year.

I love this country. I think it has had a glorious history to be proud of. It is a wonderful place to live. And I am proud to be an American (insert theme music here).

However.

I can see the flaws without throwing the whole thing away. And the greatness of the US was built in part upon the backs of the poor, and the exploitation of natural resources which are now becoming scarce. The US is in a decline. The distribution of wealth is becoming skewed. I do not know how to fix it. And I am not an economist so I cannot isolate the problem, but it is happening.

The US is not so perfect that it cannot stand some fundamental changes.

BRAVO!! Exactly so, "limited" is SUBJECTIVE, subject to ones own interpretation.If we avoid extremism in all things it would be a better world.

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by ingelein

BRAVO!! Exactly so, "limited" is SUBJECTIVE, subject to ones own interpretation.If we avoid extremism in all things it would be a better world.

Limited is NOT subjective. In fact, the gov't was very specifically limited in only certain, enumerated ways, to act.

There is absolutely NO subjectivity to the specific enumerated powers of a limited gov't. If you doubt this, simply read the Federalist Papers.

Our founding fathers were quite clear and specific in that the limited powers of gov't brooked no wiggle room.

~faith,
Timothy.

[ZASHAGALKA]

THESE, and ONLY THESE, are the enumerated powers of the Federal Gov't:

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

~~~

You can also infer that the following statements in the following amendments extend a few more enumerated powers. Each of these amendments grant additional enumerated powers for Congress to act in defense (but not outside the intent) of the Amendment in question:

Amendment XIII

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. . .

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Amendment XV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Amendment XVIII

Section 1. After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

Section 2. The Congress and the several states shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation. (A power shared with the States, and subsequently, repealed.)

Amendment XIX

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XX

Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

Section 4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.

Amendment XXIII

Section 1. The District constituting the seat of government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as the Congress may direct:

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XXIV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Amendment XXV

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Amendment XXVI

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age.

Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

~~~~

That's it. Very specific. No subjective wiggle room.

Thomas Jefferson: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."


Where are the rest of those rights vested?

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

~faith,
Timothy.

[horsenurse25]

No disrespect to our founding fathers...

But in the late 1700's they did not have to contend with the issues we do now.
I doubt in their wildest dreams they would ever envision the world we have today...

The basic principles are sound. Fair enough. But they were dealing with a population of thousands, not millions.
They lived in a land of unlimited resources, not a global economy.
They lived in a time when EVERYONE did the best they could to survive and still many starved in the gutters.
And I believe they lived in a time where people were more, well, human.

I daresay that if the founding fathers were alive today they could come up with further improvements to their plans.

I still say that limited is a subjective term. Other countries have a much less rigid government than the US, others have a much more rigid. Ask 100 people what they think the term 'limited' means regarding the constitution and you will get different answers. There have been thousands of debates in the highest orders going on about the role of goverment since this government began. I was forced to go to one in my University a few years ago. It was ghastly to me as I am not very interested in political science.

I was just curious... do you have any comments upon the world order rankings that I posted? I was certainly shocked that the US is that low in all those categories.

[ingelein]

The US standings in world order has been posted before several times and even though it is very telling and shameful, this data seems to be discounted by some folks.

And right you are to point out that should our founding fathers have lived in todays world, the constitution may have looked somewhat different. Hmmm... what is that old saying? " A tree that does not bend will break?"

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by horsenurse25

No disrespect to our founding fathers...

But in the late 1700's they did not have to contend with the issues we do now.
I doubt in their wildest dreams they would ever envision the world we have today...

The basic principles are sound. Fair enough. But they were dealing with a population of thousands, not millions.
They lived in a land of unlimited resources, not a global economy.
They lived in a time when EVERYONE did the best they could to survive and still many starved in the gutters.
And I believe they lived in a time where people were more, well, human.

I daresay that if the founding fathers were alive today they could come up with further improvements to their plans.

I still say that limited is a subjective term. Other countries have a much less rigid government than the US, others have a much more rigid. Ask 100 people what they think the term 'limited' means regarding the constitution and you will get different answers. There have been thousands of debates in the highest orders going on about the role of goverment since this government began. I was forced to go to one in my University a few years ago. It was ghastly to me as I am not very interested in political science.

I was just curious... do you have any comments upon the world order rankings that I posted? I was certainly shocked that the US is that low in all those categories.

Nobody had health problems in the 17th Century?

Those rankings first - are solely based on the input of the submitting nations. Not an unbiased undertaking to be sure. 2nd- Americans eat crap, and consider watching TV to be exercise. That, to be sure, has a marked effects on long-term health. 3rd - Americans have this arcane, if morally heroic, attitude of saving every last premie. I'm sure that gov't restricted healthcare will provide for some measure to reduce 'futility' of effort, as a cost/benefit analysis. Until then, Of COURSE that will impact the mortality statistics of infants.

~faith,
Timothy.

[pickledpepperRN]

Weren't the Federalist papers partison articled promoting ratification of the Constitution? - http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/


Didn't Hamilton argue against the Bill of Rights? http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found..._rightss7.html

Anyway it is interesting to re read them.

[horsenurse25]

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

Nobody had health problems in the 17th Century?

Those rankings first - are based on the input of the submitting nations. Not an unbiased undertaking to be sure. 2nd- Americans eat crap, and it has marked effects on our health. 3rd - Americans have the morally heroic attitude of saving every last premie. Of COURSE, that will impact the mortality of infants.

~faith,
Timothy.

Hmmm.
Well, another example of subjectivity I guess!
At any rate, it is a beautiful day here and I am going out to ride my horse!!
Spring has Sprung!!

[ZASHAGALKA]

Originally Posted by ingelein

The standings in world order of the US has been posted before several times and even though it is very telling and shameful, this data seems to be discounted by some folks.

And right you are to point out that should our founding fathers have lived in todays world, the constitution may have looked somewhat different. Hmmm... what is that old saying? " A tree that does not bend will break?"

Not discounted, but correlation is not causation, especially since other causes are readily apparent.

I might concede that if drafted today, the Constitution might look very different. Our founding fathers, in fact, conceded that very proposition, placing within the Constitution the ability to do just that, by Constitutional Convention. UNTIL such a new Convention occurs, our social contract is straightforward and the gov't IS limited.

As it should be, in the interest of compassion.

It's simply not ENOUGH to declare our social contract outdated. In order to be a valid standing, you must effect a change to that contract. The mechanism is in place to do just that.

~faith,
Timothy.