[talaxandra]

Originally Posted by Nancy2

The other thing is that RNs in these systems make way less money on average than US nurses. Also, none of them have RN-patient ratios, which would greatly increase the costs of theses systems and either make less facilities available or TAXES go WAY UP!
Think about it very carefully!!!!Please

Victoria was the first place in the world to introduce a nurse: patient ratio. Unlike the introduction of the GST (a non-core promise tax), my taxes haven't increased since it's introduction, beds haven't closed, and there are more nurses than before.

I haven't lived in a country without universal health care, and so I can't tell how much of my distress at the idea of a US-style health system is due to 'socialist' sensibilities and how much is due to purely intellectual concerns.

Here's what I do know:
* as a percentage on GNP, Australia's universal health care costs less than the US user-pays system does - recent estimates put it as 8.4%;
* our life expectancy is longer (female 81.1 vs 79.4, male 75.2 vs 72.7), even with appalling figures for indigenous Australians;
* we have lower infant mortality (5.8 per 1000 live births vs 7.8);
* 100% of Australians have access to health care, 16.3% of Americans do not.

Choice magazine online has an interesting article looking at the costs to individuals and families if Australia decided to lose Medicare (http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle...tid=100008&p=1).

[SmilingBluEyes]

Originally Posted by talaxandra

Victoria was the first place in the world to introduce a nurse: patient ratio. Unlike the introduction of the GST (a non-core promise tax), my taxes haven't increased since it's introduction, beds haven't closed, and there are more nurses than before.

I haven't lived in a country without universal health care, and so I can't tell how much of my distress at the idea of a US-style health system is due to 'socialist' sensibilities and how much is due to purely intellectual concerns.

Here's what I do know:
* as a percentage on GNP, Australia's universal health care costs less than the US user-pays system does - recent estimates put it as 8.4%;
* our life expectancy is longer (female 81.1 vs 79.4, male 75.2 vs 72.7), even with appalling figures for indigenous Australians;
* we have lower infant mortality (5.8 per 1000 live births vs 7.8);
* 100% of Australians have access to health care, 16.3% of Americans do not.

Choice magazine online has an interesting article looking at the costs to individuals and families if Australia decided to lose Medicare (http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle...tid=100008&p=1).

FASCINATING if you ask me. It makes me livid, actually. Good for Australia.

[jenruth]

Very true. It could never be completely free. What worries me about socialized medicine, is that it would remove the individual person's power of choice. Every aspect of one's healthcare would be directed and managed by bureaucrats. Noncompliance would result in being refused insurance coverage. And what would be done with people in high-risk groups for certain diseases and conditions? Such a system might refuse them any insurance coverage.

Originally Posted by Kyriaka

I think we have to be careful about definitions. Nothing is free. Nothing. Someone always pays.

I mainly deal (at this time) with Lyme disease patients. Yes, Canadian patients can get antibiotics "free". However, they are limited to very old antibiotics that are not nearly as effective. Many come to the US to try Zithromax or an experimental drug.

I have also heard stories of patients being moved up on Canadian surgery lists by paying under the table in US dollars (cash).

[talaxandra]

Originally Posted by jenruth

Very true. It could never be completely free. What worries me about socialized medicine, is that it would remove the individual person's power of choice. Every aspect of one's healthcare would be directed and managed by bureaucrats. Noncompliance would result in being refused insurance coverage. And what would be done with people in high-risk groups for certain diseases and conditions? Such a system might refuse them any insurance coverage.

What aspect of choice are you concerned are abridged with universal health care? If you refer to bureaucratic involvement in health care decision making, that's already being done to a great extent by insurance companies, who decide what they will and won't pay for, and who they will and won't cover.
In a universal health care system access to health care is not reliant on insurance coverage - everyone is covered, with better health care outcomes, for a lower cost.

[LPNer]

Originally Posted by talaxandra

What aspect of choice are you concerned are abridged with universal health care? If you refer to bureaucratic involvement in health care decision making, that's already being done to a great extent by insurance companies, who decide what they will and won't pay for, and who they will and won't cover.
In a universal health care system access to health care is not reliant on insurance coverage - everyone is covered, with better health care outcomes, for a lower cost.

Though I am 100% against socialized medicine, we really need to do something with insurance companies. As it stands now, they have gotten totally out of control!
My husband had a triple bypass a couple of months ago and without insurance I would have fainted by now with the bills coming in. However, it is rediculous that they can say such and such should only cost 10$ so that is what we are going to pay, you pay the rest.
What do they mean, should cost? I work at the hospital where it was done, and my employer "eats" a large portion of what the insurance company won't pay, so that has also helped. But, they don't "eat" any of what the surgeons, anethesia, etc charge and the insurance company refused to pay it because they think it should have been $$, instead of $$$.
What kind of bull is that?
The insurance companies have gotten totally out of hand and socialized medicine may help with that, but then, it would create oh so many other problems that would not cost us less but more; unless a LOT of changes were made in health care dellivery. One of those things would be for ERs to send people on their way if it is not an emergency! An earache is not an emergency unless there is blood oozing out of the ear, that kind of thing.... (oh please, don't go into a list of things that can be wrong with an ear that does not present with bleeding...already know them, this is an example only. Besides, blood oozing out of the ear is not always a true emergency either.)

[Roy Fokker]

A couple of thoughts:

1. I think this whole nonsense of "insurance" should disappear. By and large, to me, it seems like we aren't into "insurance" anymore but rather "assurance".
2. Go back to the relationship we had before - you go to the Doc, you pay out of your pocket. Reserve insurance for what it was before - emergencies or catastrophies you couldn't afford to pay for otherwise! This will drive down cost because Doctors can't charge exhorbitant ammounts or noone will go to them! The market works...
3. Get the darned insurance companies out between myself and my physician.
4. Eliminate the lobby of the Pharm companies...

A car company can move its factories to Mexico and claim it's a free market.
A toy company can out source to a Chinese subcontractor and claim it's a free market.
A major bank can incorporate in Bermuda to avoid taxes and claim it's a free market.
We can buy HP Printers made in Mexico. We can buy shirts made in Bangladesh.
We can purchase almost anything we want from 20 different countries.

BUT, heaven help the elderly who dare to buy their prescription drugs from a
Canadian pharmacy. That's called un-American! How stupid is this?

5. Last but not least, this practice of awarding gazzillions in lawsuits must stop. It only makes people want to file a lawsuit for a scratch and it needlessly hikes cost for all involved.

[dazzle256]

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

I am not at all smart on the issue, I readily admit. I have nothing but questions myself:

Like IF we justify spending the bucks to build bigger, better weapons systems, enough to destroy the world- 2000 times over......

And IF we can spend big bucks on charity overseas, foreign worker recruitment, etc.....

And IF we can afford mass bail-outs of failing corporations in the form of "corporate welfare"........

IF we can continue to cover illegal and undocumented immigrant/indigent care......


IF we can spend millions to celebrate the inauguration of a President (not just Bush)......

then why can't we insure the WORKING POOR?????!!!!!!! You know, the poor average sucker who DOES hold a low-paying, unbenefitted job? The ones we are seeing increase in numbers EVERY year that passes as companies just cut these benefits out from under them?????? The one whose working backs on which building a great nation's progress rests????

Anyone????

As I said, I am not too damn smart after all. I just have that BURNING "why" question that I can't seem to get any answers to.

When I was of that working poor population I was able to get good healthcare through the county. I was lucky enough to live in a county that offered it. We paid according to our income. I think I paid 6 dollars for a complete physical ...lab work...pap smear ....everything. Thank God it was not federally run I'm dealing with federal government right now for my healthcare because we have military insurance and it is a NIGHTMARE! Next week I have to go through all these people explaining why I disagree with the treatment the military Dr wants me to have. Sorry for the rambling but when ever I hear socialised medicine I think of military medicine and what a nightmare it is.

Don't get me wrong there are some really good doctors and nurses...but you practically have no say in your treatment what so ever.

[SmilingBluEyes]

Originally Posted by dazzle256

When I was of that working poor population I was able to get good healthcare through the county. I was lucky enough to live in a county that offered it. We paid according to our income. I think I paid 6 dollars for a complete physical ...lab work...pap smear ....everything. Thank God it was not federally run I'm dealing with federal government right now for my healthcare because we have military insurance and it is a NIGHTMARE! Next week I have to go through all these people explaining why I disagree with the treatment the military Dr wants me to have. Sorry for the rambling but when ever I hear socialised medicine I think of military medicine and what a nightmare it is.

Don't get me wrong there are some really good doctors and nurses...but you practically have no say in your treatment what so ever.

I have a different perspective. I have learned You DO have a say in military health care when you are educated and firm on what you need. I have received excellent and horrible care in my years in the military health care system and I have been in military health care as active duty and dependent for 24 years now. I know my way around. Sadly, many who have insurance and are PAYING big bucks for their health care actually have less access than I do---unless they can come up with the CASH to cover it, that is. And it does depend on where you live. Not all are able to access the care you describe. You were indeed fortunate. Some is better than NONE.

[webbiedebbie]

When I relocated to another state, I had to wait for 3 months before getting health insurance. Sure, COBRA was offered, but at over $400/month! I couldn't afford that!

During that time, I ended up in the hospital for 4 days. I had no health insurance. My bill came to over $15,000!!!!!! The hospital offered to help me by sending me forms to fill out for assistance. One of the questions is: What was your previous salary for last year. Hey, that doesn't matter because I don't make that now. Why do I have to be placed into a category like that?

At my last hospital where I worked, health insurance premiums for employees were outrageous! And, I still ended up paying out of my pocket for things the insurance company would not cover. I have one large bill not paid to the hospital because the insurance company still has questions about my care. They have since dropped it because they weren't satisfied with the information. How much more information do they need?! Isn't that information supposed to given at the time the claim is filed?

I think insurance companies run health care. I think health care should be a given right for all w/o the threat of having to claim bankruptcy. I also think it is wrong that outstanding health care bills are placed on your credit record. I am sorry, but I did not plan to get sick. I did not go out of my way to go to the ER just for the pleasure of it. The physicians said because it was my second episode, they normally would do surgery, but because I don't have insurance they didn't. SO, now I have a pre-existing condition that I don't know how will be handled when I have another flare-up!

I don't know what the answer is....I do know there is a problem with health care in our society and I think a lot of wasted time and money is spent on other things that don't necessarily benefit us.

I don't know how I am every going to pay off this bill...I drive a used car because I knew I could not afford to buy a new one. That was my choice based upon my financial budget. Getting sick and seeking care IS NOT an option anymore. WHAT????????

[dazzle256]

Originally Posted by SmilingBluEyes

I have a different perspective. I have learned You DO have a say in military health care when you are educated and firm on what you need. I have received excellent and horrible care in my years in the military health care system and I have been in military health care as active duty and dependent for 24 years now. I know my way around. Sadly, many who have insurance and are PAYING big bucks for their health care actually have less access than I do---unless they can come up with the CASH to cover it, that is. And it does depend on where you live. Not all are able to access the care you describe. You were indeed fortunate. Some is better than NONE.

I've dealt with them sense 1982 without too much problems. Fortunately I've been pretty healthy though. They want me to go through this rediculously invasive surgery that quite frankly is not necessary. Nobody wants to take accountability......its too big.