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  #21  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 04:01 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003

[quote=Dixielee]"No, here in Canada we make our patients sleep on the floor, without blankets.... Don't know what you do in Alabama, have you ever seen a Canadian. We don't live in igloos, mounties dont wear red to work, and I've only ever dated one lumberjack"


_____________
It was a question only. You are over reacting.

I happen to have a patient whose "partner" is in Canada. Her gall bladder surgery was canceled 3x then she was told to bring her own pillow.

Actually, bringing your own pillow may save a whole lot of money.

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  #22  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 06:15 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Talking

[quote=Kyriaka][quote=Dixielee]"No, here in Canada we make our patients sleep on the floor, without blankets.... Don't know what you do in Alabama, have you ever seen a Canadian. We don't live in igloos, mounties dont wear red to work, and I've only ever dated one lumberjack"


_____________
It was a question only. You are over reacting.

I happen to have a patient whose "partner" is in Canada. Her gall bladder surgery was canceled 3x then she was told to bring her own pillow.

Actually, bringing your own pillow may save a whole lot of money.

And if you are wondering, I dont wear shoes to and I married my brother.

The US system has its problems. Every system does. Canadians cross to the US for certain things, and US citizens cross to Canada for other things.

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  #23  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 06:23 PM
Fiona59 (Female)
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004

Gall Bladder surgery isn't considered vital (unless you are the one suffering). My Gall Bladder op was cancelled once and I wasn't a happy camper but it was done the next week.

My first thought when reading your second post was "Jerry Springer" would love this site....

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  #24  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 06:33 PM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000

I have to laugh... The things people think about the Canadian system are hilarious.

In my experience working in both Canada and the US, the care is not different. There are some great and less great hospitals in both countries, but Canadian hospitals are not substandard because the government PAYS for healthcare. Americans don't understand that the government isn't running the system. They system is run by health boards that function just like hospital boards in the US. This is done so that the system wouldn't be too vulnerable to politics. The nurse to patient ratios are as good or better in my experience (probably has to do with the fact that nurses are mostly unionized in Canada) and the wages are ok (less than California, a lot better than Oklahoma, kwim?). Waits for elective surgeries are a fact of life, but I don't know a single Canadian who has ever gone to the US rather than just wait. I would rather wait 3 months and have everything paid for than shell out 20K for a procedure. It's important to note that anyone on Worker's Compensation, or in the military or the police force or in jail gets bumped to the head of the line so their wait isn't as long. The 70 year old retired person will wait longer for a knee replacement than the 30 year old cop. The cost of our system is a LOT less than the American system with basically the same health outcomes for patients. We can pick our own doctors and the government doesn't decide what treatment we get. We also have up to date equipment and drugs and do research as well.

There are downsides: the elective waits, less opportunities for advanced practice nurses, no travel nurses, few agency nursing positions, more casual and part time positions.... Overall I like the opportunities working in the US, but if I get sick I'd rather be back in Canada. Getting sick here can mean financial ruin and I'm not so rich that I wouldn't be vulnerable to that.

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  #25  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 09:13 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003

[quote=Fiona59]Gall Bladder surgery isn't considered vital (unless you are the one suffering).
_____________
But it can be.

Mine burst.

Something elective can easily turn ugly.

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  #26  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 10:03 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
links/waiting lists in Canada

Hope I am not "flamed" for posting these links.
There is no perfect healthcare system. And I realize that articles about all the problems with the US system could be posted too. (go for it! )

There are no easy answers to this complex issue. And what works in one country may or may not work in another country.

But despite the problems with our US system, I still prefer it.

***Patients told to go to US
November 25, 2004
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2...25/730737.html
Article excerpt:
Windsor, Ontario: Doctor Albert Schumacher believes it's his ethical and moral responsibility to tell patients they can cross the border for faster tests. The president of the Canadian Medical Association said the country's doctors have no choice when waiting times get unhealthy for their patients....

"Right now physicians scramble to get their patients the treatment they need," Schumacher said. "Getting it in a timely way is virtually impossible."

In a speech to the Toronto Board of Trade yesterday, Schumacher said the shortage of health professionals and the inability to access timely care for patients is undermining confidence in the system.

**Canadian Medical Association Journal,
Waiting lists for healthcare, a necessary evil?

Richard F. Davies, MD, PhD
Link for article:
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201...ue-10/1469.htm
Article Excerpt:
In addition to their costs to the system, one must consider the costs of waiting lists to patients. Protracted treatment delays increase mortality and morbidity rates. In the Ontario example,171 patients died while
waiting for CABG, 121 were removed from the list permanently because they had become medically unfit for surgery, 211 were taken off the list temporarily (the usual reason for this is medical instability, in which case patients are often reinstated in a higher urgency category), 259 were removed from the list for unspecified reasons and 44 left the province and underwent CABG elsewhere.


***Need surgery? Here's how long you'll wait. (Calgary Herald)
Link for article: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman...care/wait.html
Article Excerpt:
Susan Warner swallows addictive painkillers every day to ease the crippling pain she endures waiting for knee-replacement surgery.

One of her knees gave out in October and the Calgary woman has been waiting for the surgery since. However, Warner, 51, is lost in a lineup for the operation at the Rockyview General Hospital that she says could last 18 months.

"It's inhuman. The quality of my life is horrible and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it," she said Tuesday.

Waiting lists are crippling Canada's health-care system and frustrating patients and doctors alike. The Canadian Medical Association released a 10-point prescription on Tuesday that targets waiting lists for surgery and diagnostic procedures like MRIs and CT scans.....

There are about 25,000 Calgarians waiting for surgery or scans at the city's four major hospitals. And the Calgary Health Region estimates waiting times for surgery are growing at an astronomical rate of 12 to 18 per cent every year.
Alberta Health's website says waiting times in Calgary are as follows:

- 62 weeks for a hip replacement at Peter Lougheed Centre;

- 62 weeks for general surgery at Rocky- view General Hospital;

- 30 weeks for MRI scans at Foothills Medical Centre;

- 54 weeks for knee replacement surgery at Rockyview General Hospital;

- 11 weeks for cardiac surgery at Foothills Medical Centre.

For Warner, the wait has come with a heavy price. She says she has become addicted to painkillers that are a daily staple to help her hobble through her workday....

(NOTE: you can check current wait times for many procudures at the Alberta Health web site that is mentioned in this article.) The link is: http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/waitlist/WaitListData.jsp


***Canada's Health System Dream Turns to Nightmare
Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., and Robert J. Cihak, M.D.
June 9, 2004
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/113918.shtml
Article excerpt:
....Comparing Canada with other industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) that provide universal access to health care, a study released by The Fraser Institute in May revealed that Canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

The study identifies one of the major reasons for this discrepancy. Unlike other countries in the study that outperformed Canada - such as Sweden, Japan, Australia, and France - Canada outlaws virtually all private health care. If the government says it provides a medical service, it's illegal for a Canadian citizen to pay for and get the service privately. In practice, this means a patient must linger in line for hospital treatment - an average of 17.7 weeks in 2003, according to an annual survey on hospital waiting list published by the Fraser Institute.

One of the reasons Canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.

NOTE: For more info on private health care being illegal in most of Canada, see this article from the Canadian Medical Association Journal. It's complex...
"The illegality of private health care in Canada", link: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825

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  #27  
Old Mar 13, 2005, 10:37 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004

Originally Posted by Grushenka
I am interested in your opinions about introducing a national healthcare system in the United States. What do you think about introducing free basic packet of healthcare services (e.g. emergency services and annual medical, eye, dental exams)? Do you know anything about national healthcare systems existing in other countries such as Sweden and Germany?
I would also be happy to get some information on this issue from abroad. Grushenka
op,
trust me, i've been a nurse for 18 years and we already have socialized medicine, we just don't call it that.

call you dr tomorrow and try to get an appointment. you will wait at least a week to be seen and IF you get in, you'll wait an hour or more to be seen. the office may even tell you that if you can't wait to go to the er... where you'll have a wait that can give any canadian er wait, a run for the money.

see, if you do have insurance, once you pick a primary dr, they are paid a certain amount for the year from the insurance company. now if your primary sees you once or 15 times a year, he or she still gets paid the same, so they have no incentive to actually see you and help you.

plus, there's this entire working uninsured class that is growing exponentially and multiplying like rabbits in your local er waiting rooms, where cash isn't required to be seen.

please, it's an awful situation. i can't imagine it being much worse if we just went ahead and called the duck a duck already!

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  #28  
Old Mar 14, 2005, 01:22 AM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000

Originally Posted by tridil2000
op,
trust me, i've been a nurse for 18 years and we already have socialized medicine, we just don't call it that.
Amen to that! The systems really aren't so different. The difference is in administration and cost.

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  #29  
Old Mar 14, 2005, 01:26 AM
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2000

Originally Posted by ArwenEvenstar
***Canada's Health System Dream Turns to Nightmare
Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., and Robert J. Cihak, M.D.
June 9, 2004
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/113918.shtml
Article excerpt:
....Comparing Canada with other industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) that provide universal access to health care, a study released by The Fraser Institute in May revealed that Canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

The study identifies one of the major reasons for this discrepancy. Unlike other countries in the study that outperformed Canada - such as Sweden, Japan, Australia, and France - Canada outlaws virtually all private health care. If the government says it provides a medical service, it's illegal for a Canadian citizen to pay for and get the service privately. In practice, this means a patient must linger in line for hospital treatment - an average of 17.7 weeks in 2003, according to an annual survey on hospital waiting list published by the Fraser Institute.

One of the reasons Canadians are slow to acknowledge the problems with their system is that general practitioners have been relatively easy to access and reasonably efficient at providing everyday services for common complaints, such as colds, sprains, aches and pains.

NOTE: For more info on private health care being illegal in most of Canada, see this article from the Canadian Medical Association Journal. It's complex...
"The illegality of private health care in Canada", link: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/164/6/825
The Fraser Institute is well known as a right wing think tank in Canada. The interesting thing about that article is that it doesn't mention the US as outperforming Canada does it? The countries that outperform us all have some sort of universal or socialized healthcare. Our system could improve by trying to see what aspects of those countries' systems might work for us.

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  #30  
Old Mar 14, 2005, 02:50 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004

The OP has asked for international responses .... here comes one from Scandinavia.

Prefixing anything as "socialized" in the US is asking for a major migraine and pretty much dooms any moderate and informed discussion from the start.

Perhaps a more appropriate term is the widely used apolitical "Universal Healthcare", which implies all individuals, regardless of social class or finances, are entitled to the exact same high standards of medical services via a public health insurance scheme.

As far as I am aware, The US of A is the only western industrialized nation that doesn't have Universal healthcare, but please don't hesitate to correct me if I am wrong.

I'm way too tired after working all night to be posting coherently right now, so I will have to return after a few hours sleep, when I will gladly share any and all information about the healthcare system in Sweden.

As a parting aside, all our pats. get pillows, blankets, 3 square meals plus snacks and a all day coffee/tea buffet with assorted swedish coffee breads, heck they get socks and jammies and toothpaste/brushes, lypsyl, too ....... you name it ..... they can even get stemcell transplants if the need be.

More later since I'm fading fast here ..... ZZzZZzzz
InfRN
Sweden


Last edited by InfRN : Mar 14, 2005 at 09:49 AM.
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