[Elvish]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

Hopefully you didn't think I was blaming the illegal immigrant, because I wasn't. I was laying blame where it lays..with the employer that abuses them. My point is that is it another reason to make sure immigrants are legal and that we go after the employers that hire them.

I didn't take it that way, don't worry. I was just saying that I do worry about the point that you brought up and I have seen the abuses myself. The demand that this country has created for illegal immigrants is as much as anything else at fault. On that we agree.

[Elvish]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

I think sometimes we tend to focus on the Mexicans because of the numbers. We just need to fix the problem. I do think we have the capacity to allow a lot more people in than we do.

Completely agreed. And what should we do about the ones that are here already? I personally think Viking has a good idea. What about you?

[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Completely agreed. And what should we do about the ones that are here already? I personally think Viking has a good idea. What about you?

I think it is more reasonable than the $$ amt the original bill was asking for...no illegal immigrant could afford that. I totally agree expcept securing ALL the borders also has to be part of it. No you can't keep everyone out 100%, but we could do a lot better job and keep the majority out. We need to have a way to keep those out that we don't want in i.e. criminals, terrorists, etc. We don't need criminals that we send back also, re-entering the country in a blink of an eye. We did do an "amnesty" type program in the 80"s and that didn't work well, we have a even worse problem. So:

1. Do Vickings ideas.
2. Increase the number of visas available.
3. Secure the border.

[Jessy_RN]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

I think it is more reasonable than the $$ amt the original bill was asking for...no illegal immigrant could afford that. I totally agree expcept securing ALL the borders also has to be part of it. No you can't keep everyone out 100%, but we could do a lot better job and keep the majority out. We need to have a way to keep those out that we don't want in i.e. criminals, terrorists, etc. We don't need criminals that we send back also, re-entering the country in a blink of an eye. We did do an "amnesty" type program in the 80"s and that didn't work well, we have a even worse problem. So:

1. Do Vickings ideas.
2. Increase the number of visas available.
3. Secure the border.

...If we are going to secure the border.......let it be the borders. Why just Mexico?

I agree with Arwen and Viking 100%. I am a hispanic-US born citizen that happens to have brown skin and a Spanish accent. I live in discrimination every day of my life. I am labled as "The Mexican girl" although I am of Puerto Rican decent (Puerto Ricans ARE US citizens)......sorry had to throw that in because MANY people believe it or not do not know that-yet throw their 2 cents in.

Anyhow, can't agree with Vicking and Arwen anymore. I challenge anyone to walk a mile in my shoes and I am 100% USA citizen-that is all I have to say.

When people talk about Mexican's is such an isult. I compare it to when people call anyone with almond-shaped eyes........."Chinese". I am sure Vietnamese, Phillipinos, Korean, Japanese, etc..........can relate and agree.

[Elvish]

Oh, just an afterthought....if anyone wants to know where Mexicans (since that's who this debate seems to be about) got the idea of coming to the USA to work, google "braceros".

The short version is that after the US entered WWII in the early 40's, there was a massive farm labor shortage due to people joining the military/being drafted, and people going to work in the factories to support the war effort. What did the grand ol' USA do? We imported workers from.....drum roll please.....Mexico! They were called "braceros" taken from the root word brazo, meaning arm. The bracero program was stopped in the 60's but the wave of immigration continued.

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html
http://www.csuchico.edu/pub/inside/a..._braceros.html

[Jessy_RN]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Oh, just an afterthought....if anyone wants to know where Mexicans (since that's who this debate seems to be about) got the idea of coming to the USA to work, google "braceros".

The short version is that after the US entered WWII in the early 40's, there was a massive farm labor shortage due to people joining the military/being drafted, and people going to work in the factories to support the war effort. What did the grand ol' USA do? We imported workers from.....drum roll please.....Mexico! They were called "braceros" taken from the root word brazo, meaning arm. The bracero program was stopped in the 60's but the wave of immigration continued.

http://www.farmworkers.org/bracerop.html
http://www.csuchico.edu/pub/inside/a..._braceros.html

Absolutely! Thank you for the links. Unfortunately, braceros, has been replaced with the title "wet-backs". I am sure everyone reading this thread has heard this term rather than the first.

[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by Future_RN_Jess

...If we are going to secure the border.......let it be the borders. Why just Mexico?

I agree with Arwen and Viking 100%. I am a hispanic-US born citizen that happens to have brown skin and a Spanish accent. I live in discrimination every day of my life. I am labled as "The Mexican girl" although I am of Puerto Rican decent (Puerto Ricans ARE US citizens)......sorry had to throw that in because MANY people believe it or not do not know that-yet throw their 2 cents in.

Anyhow, can't agree with Vicking and Arwen anymore. I challenge anyone to walk a mile in my shoes and I am 100% USA citizen-that is all I have to say.

When people talk about Mexican's is such an isult. I compare it to when people call anyone with almond-shaped eyes........."Chinese". I am sure Vietnamese, Phillipinos, Korean, Japanese, etc..........can relate and agree.

If you read my entire post I said borders, not border. I goofed and forgot the s when I summarized. Sorry. If in one of my posts you felt I was insuling Mexican's, that was not my intent. I myself am 1/4 spanish very proud of it. My want to fix the problem is not only for the best interest of the country, but also for the best interest of those coming here illegally. I've lived in other countries and I've seen the want to come here...with the wait being years and years. It is sad because I do think we have a bigger capacity to let people in than what we are issuing in green cards.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Believe me, I have seen it firsthand. I worked at a community health center (same one as in previous post) that served mostly migrant farmworkers and other illegal immigrants in factory jobs. I have seen firsthand farmworkers who were so frightened of their crewleaders they would not even speak in his presence. I have seen people who allowed as how they'd been hit, kicked, belt-whipped, and not allowed to pee for 15 hours while out working. I have seen workers get screwed out of their wages more times than I can count. I have seen farmworkers work in August heat for 2 days with appendicitis. I have seen living conditions that I would not allow my pet rat (if I had one) to live in. No running water. No electricity. Broken windows. Dead mice rotting in the kitchen of the labor camp. Sewage backed up in the yards where kids are playing. I have seen it and it infuriates me.

But I don't blame the illegal immgrants for it. Like you said, they have little or no say in the matters. It should be easier for people who want to come here, and we might not have the problem(s) we have today.

Arwen_U ...I dont think all the answers to this problem are "concrete".As for me.....my heart goes out to those in other countries who live in impoverishment.But, at some point in time these other countries have to become self sufficient enough to properly care for their own people.Right now..their is no incentive for these countries to become "self sufficient" bc their citizens can just come to the USA...make some money here(possibly being treated horridly by their employers bc they are "not documented"....and then they can send a good portion of the money they earn BACK HOME TO THEIR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN TO CARE FOR THEIR families.So...their government doesnt have to really deal with broadening their employment options bc their answer is to GO TO THE USA.What I am saying is ...some of these countries are so very beautiful...an example is "yes mexico"...with the yucutan penninsula..cancun...the riveris maya...tulum....cozumel. They have some extremely talented craftsmen...their copper works exports are beautiful...textile are world famous...silversmiths producing beautiful works of art....the weather is lovely...the culture is beautiful...the beaches are breathtaking .and the Hispanics LOVE their country of course( and so do I!).With such a LOVELY country..and so many talents .Mexico (as an exAMPLE bc it borders the usa)...has really NO incentive to develop its assets and strengthen its work force opportunities bc their solution is to go to the usa to work and send money home.Hispanics shouldnt have to choose to leave such a beautiful country just to make ends meet.So..by continuing to allow workers to enter the usa illegally we are not making their GOVERNMENT deal with the issues.If..If...mexico sudenly got all their citizens deported BACK to mexico with secure borders ....THEN...THEN ...they would have to step up to the plate and start strengthening their workforce opportunities.But ...they dont have to do that do they......they dont have to do that bc...it is easier for them to allow their workers to illegally enter the usa...work under false/stolen ss numbers ...and then return home to mexico. By allowing illegal workers to enter here in the usa we are in essence "ENABLING" [BMexico..and thus making the citizens of one of the most beautiful countries in the world choose between their home and culture an d...earning a good wage. My point is this...face it guys....mexico is beautiful....if their government HAD TO DEAL WITH EMPLOYMENT issues with its citizens and provided decent wages they would NEVER want to come here to the usa!So..by not securing our borders....by not deporting the citizens of ANY country back to their country of origin we are "ENABLING" those countries...and making its citizens choose between their home and culture...and a wage. I feel like securing our borders ..in the long run would be beneficial to both sides.[/b]

[Elvish]

I completely agree that Mexico (and other gov'ts of Latin America) have some share of the responsibility in this. Government corruption is rampant and police in many places have little to no control over criminals...and a LOT of times the police will deliberately turn their backs on crime for a bribe at the right price. I watch the Spanish language news, read the Spanish language papers, and have in-laws living in Mexico. Believe me, I know. Mexico is indeed a beautiful country full of beautiful people and cultures and languages and architecture and FOOD. I know what you are saying.

Rewind 400 years, and maybe the Native Americans talked amongst themselves as we are now, saying "England needs to take responsibility for these people coming here. They have no incentive to allow freedom of religion as long as they allow these people to keep coming over here." Things just may have come full circle.

But you know what? Most Latin Americans themselves -- the ones I have talked to, anyway -- would not have opted to come to the US were they able to raise their families safely and affordably at home.

I don't think the fault is entirely Mexico's, though. Like I previously posted, the USA was the one who gave Mexicans living in Mexico the idea of crossing the border to work. We imported Mexican workers to begin with. Braceros who came here to work discovered that their meager wages, sent back home, went a lot further. In that sense, we have made our own bed.

If we went to sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow with Vietnam to our south instead of Mexico, I think we would be having the same conversation about Vietnam. Or Belgium. Or Nigeria. Or...or... When you are living in the richest country in the world, you (universal you here) have to realize that people are going to want a piece of the pie. And who can blame them? My European ancestors wanted the same thing. I doubt that when my father's ancestors came here in the 1700s, they asked permission of the govts already set up by the native Americans.

My opinion is that it is in the best interest of everybody to create a workable system, not one that makes well-intentioned people wait years upon years for the chance to come here legally. We don't have that right now. When we do have that, I think we will see illegal immigration from all countries drop tremendously.

It may come as a shock, but I don't support theconcept of illegal immigration. But I can and do see the reasons why people do it. It's not about malice. I will continue to defend illegal immigrants because I know them. They are my friends and family, not numbers in a government report. I'm not attacking your post, TN, just stating things as I see them. I respect your position. I just happen to have a different perspective, different knowledge, and therefore, a different position.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

I completely agree that Mexico (and other gov'ts of Latin America) have some share of the responsibility in this. Government corruption is rampant and police in many places have little to no control over criminals...and a LOT of times the police will deliberately turn their backs on crime for a bribe at the right price. I watch the Spanish language news, read the Spanish language papers, and have in-laws living in Mexico. Believe me, I know. Mexico is indeed a beautiful country full of beautiful people and cultures and languages and architecture and FOOD. I know what you are saying.

Rewind 400 years, and maybe the Native Americans talked amongst themselves as we are now, saying "England needs to take responsibility for these people coming here. They have no incentive to allow freedom of religion as long as they allow these people to keep coming over here." Things just may have come full circle.

But you know what? Most Latin Americans themselves -- the ones I have talked to, anyway -- would not have opted to come to the US were they able to raise their families safely and affordably at home.

I don't think the fault is entirely Mexico's, though. Like I previously posted, the USA was the one who gave Mexicans living in Mexico the idea of crossing the border to work. We imported Mexican workers to begin with. Braceros who came here to work discovered that their meager wages, sent back home, went a lot further. In that sense, we have made our own bed.

If we went to sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow with Vietnam to our south instead of Mexico, I think we would be having the same conversation about Vietnam. Or Belgium. Or Nigeria. Or...or... When you are living in the richest country in the world, you (universal you here) have to realize that people are going to want a piece of the pie. And who can blame them? My European ancestors wanted the same thing. I doubt that when my father's ancestors came here in the 1700s, they asked permission of the govts already set up by the native Americans.

My opinion is that it is in the best interest of everybody to create a workable system, not one that makes well-intentioned people wait years upon years for the chance to come here legally. We don't have that right now. When we do have that, I think we will see illegal immigration from all countries drop tremendously.

It may come as a shock, but I don't support theconcept of illegal immigration. But I can and do see the reasons why people do it. It's not about malice. I will continue to defend illegal immigrants because I know them. They are my friends and family, not numbers in a government report. I'm not attacking your post, TN, just stating things as I see them. I respect your position. I just happen to have a different perspective, different knowledge, and therefore, a different position.

Hi...no no. I appreciate your insight.I am just saying this....Mexico is beautiful...both in culture and landscape and...it is has great talent that could be tapped IF IF the Mexican Governement was HELD ACCOUNTABLE for something like...PROVIDING JOBS for the citizens of Mexico.But they are not held accountable....they are having america solve their job by favoring its citizens to illegally come here.The gvt should be held accountable. I also cant help what my ancestors or yours did,I...and YOU...can only be responsible for OUR ACTIONS dealing with the problems we have today. This is WHERE i live....and today this problem of ilegal immigration is putting our country potentially at risk.As we are so determined (we being the US gvt) to help restructure every single gvt on the planet....I cant help but ask the GVT "HELLO>>>DID ANYONE THINK ABOUT MEXICO?"...bc you are right in what you are saying IF...IF the citizens of Mexico had a choice of making an average wage they would not elect to BREAK THE UNITED STATES LAW and sneak into this country unchecked.Once here...they are undocumented and at risk to unscrupolous employers...they also put off tending to healthcare needs until they are often times very very sick and require prolonged hospital stays....and who...who pays for this?who pays that hospital bill? We had a patient a year/so ago that when he was discharged we had over 1.5 million dollars in.He was there bc he was driving drunk...was involved in a hit and run...and had many many arrests in the usa for Breaking and enteriing ...assault....DUI....and he had a hx in Mexico too.If...thye laws of immigration had been enforced he wouldnt have injured that other couple...he wouldnt have cost my small hospital over 1.5 million dollars that we...as a small community hospital could not afford.This bill...trickles down to employees.When hospitals dont make money...we dont get raises.This man had a violent hx in Mexico.....he should have entered this country legally.../and been screened for safety of the USA citizens. The other couple I am talking about...well the driver of the vehicle he hit while DUI ...is now a paraplegic.the pt...after being discharged from the hospital made bail....and skipped out.This...is why I want everyone screened.It is for safety reasons....for the immigrant and for the usa citizens...bc I also see the undocumented workers that are brought in for tx after not having work injuries taken care of....bc they really arent "HERE" and documented.It is not fair to either side...so it should be stopped .