[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

I'm not out waving around my SS card for the taking, don't get me wrong. But if it's wrong, it's still wrong no matter who's doing it. My identity is just as stolen, my credit is just as ruined whether it's an illegal immigrant or a US citizen.

I don't think taking on more people will be a problem, really, if we make it easier for people to get here. People in the media/news/talk radio would have you believe it's simple as walking up to a kiosk, filling out a form, maybe a couple hundred bucks, and you're here. Not so at all. Not going to repeat all that for the hundredeth time. I think if people can realistically get here legally, we will have people who: 1) will not be afraid to open bank accounts and won't be carrying cash and exposing themselves to robbery (reduction in crime??); 2) will be getting valid drivers licenses and insurance 3) will be able to work decent jobs that will give them enough to support their family, while also giving them free time 4) to learn English fairly rapidly. The gov't would know exactly who's here and since when. EVERYbody can get taxes taken out and contribute. There would be no need for fake SSNs.

If it were easier to get here legally, everybody would win. As Spacenurse says, when everybody does better, everybody does better.

Kcochrane, where did you get the numbers for your post about how many people share a SSN and how many people use fake ones? Just curious, I'd like to check it out for myself.

I totally understand your position that no matter your steals your SSN it is wrong. BUT it is imperative that illegals get a SSN in order to work and with the gov't cracking down soon on fake ones, I think stolen ones will be more common. But that is just my thought.

Here are some site I found on my stats:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199861,00.html
http://www.scambusters.org/identity-theft.html

This is in interesting speech by a Senator from Nevada on some stats:
http://ensign.senate.gov/counties/record.cfm?id=261773

Here is some info on the no-match letters:
http://www.expertbusinesssource.com/...230012723.html

One of the problems I have found that there is some difference in numbers depending on what side you are on. Some are higher than I stated and some are lower. I would assume the truth is somewhere in the middle. You can google and get tons of info on stolen SSN. I bet we probably don't know the extent of the problem since the average Joe Smoe will not be told if someone is using their number unless money is owed or it shows up on their credit report.

Bottom line for me, close the borders, enforce the laws on the books and allow more people to come legally.

I agree with jyoung1950, take a look at how much we give in aide and how many loans we forgive to other countries.

[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by jyoung1950

Why not? I work with many people who are from other countries who became citizens of the U.S. under the current immigration law.

Rather than spend a whole lot of money over our border, the way to solve things is to fine companies who hire illegals. That is against the law also. And they probably are also paying them bare minimum wage or probably alot of them under the table.

And in this situation, is it right that jobs that used to pay more than minimum wage are out of reach to citizens of this country.

I've read posts on this board concerned that foreign nurses could quite possibly bring down the wages of the rest of the nurses who were born, raised and educated here. Looks like it's a big deal when it comes to our choice of occupation but too bad for the American carpenter or landscaper or farm worker. Too bad for those who used to like the work they did but can't do it or afford it anymore because of the influx of cheap illegal immigrant labor bringing down the wage.

They are here because their own country - Mexico - won't enable an environment of fair wages and work. That is a terrible shame, I agree.

Some great points here. Mexico will not change as long as they can send their people here to make money and bring it back. Mexico benefits big time from illegal immigration.

We do need to hold companies responsible for hiring illegals. Dry up the supply of jobs. For those who worry about the illegals, think about how a company can abuse an undocumented worker. They can pay them below minimum wage and they can break every labor law in the book. Who is the illegal going to tell? They are in fear of getting sent back. There are still sweat shops in America.

[Elvish]

Originally Posted by jyoung1950

Why not? I work with many people who are from other countries who became citizens of the U.S. under the current immigration law.

They are here because their own country - Mexico - won't enable an environment of fair wages and work. That is a terrible shame, I agree.

I have a couple things about your post. First is that, you might not be aware that the rules are not the same for everybody. You can go to www.uscis.gov and figure that out for yourself. I used to work in a community health center that did immigration physicals for people adjusting their status or waiting for their appointment with immigration. The folks from Europe had maybe -- maybe -- a year at most to wait for their paperwork to go through. We did physicals in 2003 for Mexicans whose cases had been filed in 1988. That's 15 years. Do you know that if you try to apply for a visa from Mexico to the US you will likely be denied? The media, news, and Tom Tancredo would have you believe that it's as simple as filling out a paper and waiting a few weeks and you're in. Wrong answer. Until you have tried it for yourself, or know someone who has, you have no idea what it is like. I'm talking about Mexico. Guatemala. Honduras. El Salvador. I have seen the process for people from Latin America and people from other places, and it is not the same. It is not fair. To answer your question, THAT'S why not.

Second, you are implying that all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. Not so at all. The majority are, no question. But it's not fair to pin the problem entirely on Mexico. What about Canada, Nigeria, the Philippines, Jamaica, England, or pick your place? There are illegals from those countries too. But Mexico is the most convenient. Why?

Third, I don't know you personally so I don't know if you are or are not a compassionate person, and frankly I'm not into personal attacks. I will tell you, however, that I have been to a Third World country and poverty here has nothing on poverty there. We in this country think we know poverty, and in individual cases it may be so. But overall, we are all living in the lap of luxury by comparison. If you have not seen it for yourself there is no way you can know. We do not know what kwashiorkor and marasmus look like. We do not know what it is like to have to drink water in the same places where people and animals bathe and defecate. We do not know what it is like to watch half of our children die from preventable diseases or because we cannot afford to feed them. These are realities for so much of the world. I understand and that you and I individually can't save the world. I'm not suggesting that. But I am saying that until you have seen it and lived it, you don't have a lot of right to tell people how they should and should not be making a better life for themselves.

[Elvish]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

For those who worry about the illegals, think about how a company can abuse an undocumented worker. They can pay them below minimum wage and they can break every labor law in the book. Who is the illegal going to tell? They are in fear of getting sent back. There are still sweat shops in America.

Believe me, I have seen it firsthand. I worked at a community health center (same one as in previous post) that served mostly migrant farmworkers and other illegal immigrants in factory jobs. I have seen firsthand farmworkers who were so frightened of their crewleaders they would not even speak in his presence. I have seen people who allowed as how they'd been hit, kicked, belt-whipped, and not allowed to pee for 15 hours while out working. I have seen workers get screwed out of their wages more times than I can count. I have seen farmworkers work in August heat for 2 days with appendicitis. I have seen living conditions that I would not allow my pet rat (if I had one) to live in. No running water. No electricity. Broken windows. Dead mice rotting in the kitchen of the labor camp. Sewage backed up in the yards where kids are playing. I have seen it and it infuriates me.

But I don't blame the illegal immgrants for it. Like you said, they have little or no say in the matters. It should be easier for people who want to come here, and we might not have the problem(s) we have today.

[Elvish]

"Entering America illegally, agitating for rights, and watching as a foreign government grants you recognition under pressure isn't a sin; it's called the Declaration of Independence."
- Gustavo Arellano, Ask a Mexican!

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by jyoung1950

. . . . .The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, a . . . . .

I'm a little confused. Since when does anyone get reimbursed for their contributions to SS & Medicare of they aren't around to enjoy the benefits of old age? For instance, if I die when I'm 55, my heirs don't get a reimbursement on all the money I've contributed to SS & Medicare. Is this magazine suggesting that illegal immigrants should get all their money back?

Ms. Ehrenreich is speaking about the simple fact that social security/medicare taxes paid by undocumented workers are not collected back in benefits at retirement. The other point is that these contributions are net gains to society at large. The real challenge for the sytem is how to allow undocumented workers to collect SS benefits in retirement. (after all they have paid taxes into the system for insurance). Social security is not an investment vehicle. It can best be described as a form of social insurance designed to prevent elderly or disabled people from falling into desperate poverty. In the event you did die at 55 minor children would receive benefits based on your earnings until age 18. Your spouse would benefit from your earnings because he/she gets to pick the most advantageous income for basing SS benefits in retirement. No private account system can deliver these kinds of benefits at a lower cost to your survivors.

I personally think that the squawks about latino immigrants has its roots in a subtle form of racism. No one really questions an illegal canadian as they are usually fair skinned and can blend in linguistically.

I don't condone illegal immigration but I do think that at its roots illegal immigration is caused by NAFTA/CAFTA decimation of central and south american economies as well as the desperate poverty of the people. I have a friend who immigrated from El Slavador at 15 simply because of a civil war that killed on the order of 75000 people. He has since become a citizen but desperate poverty and political instability definitely contributed to his coming here.

[Elvish]

[quote=HM2Viking;2349460]I personally think that the squawks about latino immigrants has its roots in a subtle form of racism. No one really questions an illegal canadian as they are usually fair skinned and can blend in linguistically.

I don't condone illegal immigration but I do think that at its roots illegal immigration is caused by NAFTA/CAFTA decimation of central and south american economies as well as the desperate poverty of the people. [quote]

[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Believe me, I have seen it firsthand. I worked at a community health center (same one as in previous post) that served mostly migrant farmworkers and other illegal immigrants in factory jobs. I have seen firsthand farmworkers who were so frightened of their crewleaders they would not even speak in his presence. I have seen people who allowed as how they'd been hit, kicked, belt-whipped, and not allowed to pee for 15 hours while out working. I have seen workers get screwed out of their wages more times than I can count. I have seen farmworkers work in August heat for 2 days with appendicitis. I have seen living conditions that I would not allow my pet rat (if I had one) to live in. No running water. No electricity. Broken windows. Dead mice rotting in the kitchen of the labor camp. Sewage backed up in the yards where kids are playing. I have seen it and it infuriates me.

But I don't blame the illegal immgrants for it. Like you said, they have little or no say in the matters. It should be easier for people who want to come here, and we might not have the problem(s) we have today.

Hopefully you didn't think I was blaming the illegal immigrant, because I wasn't. I was laying blame where it lays..with the employer that abuses them. My point is that is it another reason to make sure immigrants are legal and that we go after the employers that hire them.

[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

I personally think that the squawks about latino immigrants has its roots in a subtle form of racism. No one really questions an illegal canadian as they are usually fair skinned and can blend in linguistically.

I personally squawk about anyone that is here illegally. I think sometimes we tend to focus on the Mexicans because of the numbers. We just need to fix the problem. I do think we have the capacity to allow a lot more people in than we do.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

I personally squawk about anyone that is here illegally. I think sometimes we tend to focus on the Mexicans because of the numbers. We just need to fix the problem. I do think we have the capacity to allow a lot more people in than we do.

The people who REALLY beat the band about this issue in the media are usually complaining about latino's and don't really complain about canadians. It is much easier for a canadian to come to the US than it is for a latino and that is exactly why I think that racism is at the core of immigrant bashing. I do agree that we need to come up with a rational immigration system. I also think that we need to have a reasonable path to citizenship for those who are already here. (I think the 5000 dollar fine proposal is unreasonable.)

Maybe a 500.00 fine. (Payable through community service)
Declared their income for past 5 years/paid taxes on that income.
Are currently employed
Their kids are attending school
Obeyed the laws while living here with no violent or drug offenses. (I don't think a speeding ticket should be a bar to legalization.)



I think that everyone meeting these tests be given a green card and allowed to start the waiting time for citizenship. People who are able to follow these simple rules are showing that they want to be included in our society and we should welcome them. Draw a firm line about immigration after enactment of this type of proposal.