[Elvish]

Originally Posted by TNNURSE

I too do not feel like all immigration laws are balanced...but...come on....castro is a dictator who kills those who speak out against him...so if those guys can make it here onto dry sand and then REGISTER with the gvt I am ok with it if the GVT is!BC they can get jobs ...the gvt knows they are here.Same thing with the girls from somalia who were enduring sexual castration not so many years back...the gvt expedited their immigration process bc of that. So...at times I do think the gvt tries to do the most fair thing to those at "most risk of life/limb".

You think Cuba is the only Latin American country with a human rights record that sucks? How about Venezuela, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, and until recently, Argentina. And I'm probably leaving a few out. Ever heard of the civil war in Guatemala that lasted 36 years? Ever heard of the death squads in Guatemala and El Salvador that went after teachers, artists, medical workers a la the Khmer Rouge? Ever heard of "Las Madres de Plaza de Mayo" in Buenos Aires? I watch the Spanish language news where it seems that at least once a week, journalists trying to report the truth on crime and corruption in Mexico are found murdered and left in the street. But Cubans are the only ones allowed to come here illegally and THEN get legal. Nobody else can. Sorry, but that's NOT fair.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

You think Cuba is the only Latin American country with a human rights record that sucks? How about Venezuela, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, and until recently, Argentina. And I'm probably leaving a few out. Ever heard of the civil war in Guatemala that lasted 36 years? Ever heard of the death squads in Guatemala and El Salvador that went after teachers, artists, medical workers a la the Khmer Rouge? Ever heard of "Las Madres de Plaza de Mayo" in Buenos Aires? I watch the Spanish language news where it seems that at least once a week, journalists trying to report the truth on crime and corruption in Mexico are found murdered and left in the street. But Cubans are the only ones allowed to come here illegally and THEN get legal. Nobody else can. Sorry, but that's NOT fair.

Well...you have a point there.I cant argue with that.But..at what point...at what point do we "overextend" ourselves in an \effort to help other countries at the cost of our own citizens?It is well known that alot of americans dont have access to healthcare and needed medications...I cant help but wonder...when enough "helping" is enough?Does anyone worrry that our overextension with other countries and their citizens is going to one day soon weaken the USA?Does anyone else ever think about that?

[TNNURSE]

I too agree that it isnt necessarily fair the way the immigration laws are set up.But..I have been the victim of idenity theft...friends of mine have had their SS#s stolen and used.I cant tell you HOW severly it destroys your life, your credit, your ability to qualify for simple things like a home.So when you say...they do pay taxes and use false SS#'s I cringe!They do use those Social security numbers! They use them to qualify for lease agreements, cars , credit etc.They destroy ...absolutely destroy....your life.So...it really is so unfair to americans ....SOME not all ...but some use stolen ss#s and I cant tell you the devastation it causes...so when you say "they do pay taxes" just by using fake ss#'s...it makes me feel like you dont truly understand the complete devastation that causes.So there are 2 ways to see this.....what we are talking about "USING FAKE SSnumbers"...isnt some "victimless crime.It can destroy.....destroy your life and your ability to provide a home for your kids.It can and does reek havoc....

[Elvish]

I'm not saying that it's ok one way or the other to use SSNs for work purposes. I'm just refuting the "they don't pay taxes" argument. However, I don't know a single illegal immigrant -- and I know a lot -- that has used a SSN for anything, ANYTHING other than getting a job. I'm not saying that it can't, doesn't, or won't happen, but it's not the majority of people. And how is it any more wrong if the person stealing my identity is an illegal immigrant than a homegrown American? If it's wrong it's wrong, period. Immigration status of the identity thief is a secondary issue for me.

There is a big difference IMO between using a SSN just to get a job and using it to finance a house, buy a car, get a credit card. Right or wrong, they are still paying taxes.

Again, I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying there is a difference. And, as previously stated, if it were easier for people to get here to begin with, we might not be having this conversation.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to put yourself in the shoes of another and see that there but for the grace of God. Why does compassion have to stop in America? I don't get it.

[kcochrane]

Fake SSN are flagged and employers are given no-match letters. Most ignore them since there are really no penalties. But the law is supposed to change soon with $10,000 penalty per unfixed no-match letter. This will probably create more stolen SSNs.

Stolen SSNs by illegal immigrants are on average shared by 30 people. Now maybe some are only using them for job, but not all illegal immigrants are honest. Even those that are honest might feel the temptation to use the ssn for credit. What could it hurt as long as they are paying the bill? Try going for a job and finding out you can't get hired because someone else is using your number. And if you are the unlucky one that does get an IRS bill with penalites and interest on income you never earned, believe me it will be a nightmare to fix and you probably be financially ruined before it is fixed. At present I think the figure is 7 million SSNs stolen by illegal immigrants. The biggest problem is that you will never probably catch the person doing this, because they don't exist. At least with home-growns we have a chance since they do have an identity. I don't know about you, but I don't care how honest an illegal is, I don't want to share my SSN. I have no problem with you sharing yours if you would like.

I don't think there is lack of compassion here for illegals. Just the realization that things need to be fixed. For the security of the country, the citizens and the illegals themselves. Since they estimate that 5% of jobs are held by illegals, it would be probably be a good place to start with additional work visas.

I think TNNURSE has brought up a good question. What exactly is the threshold? Do we take anyone?

[Elvish]

I'm not out waving around my SS card for the taking, don't get me wrong. But if it's wrong, it's still wrong no matter who's doing it. My identity is just as stolen, my credit is just as ruined whether it's an illegal immigrant or a US citizen.

I don't think taking on more people will be a problem, really, if we make it easier for people to get here. People in the media/news/talk radio would have you believe it's simple as walking up to a kiosk, filling out a form, maybe a couple hundred bucks, and you're here. Not so at all. Not going to repeat all that for the hundredeth time. I think if people can realistically get here legally, we will have people who: 1) will not be afraid to open bank accounts and won't be carrying cash and exposing themselves to robbery (reduction in crime??); 2) will be getting valid drivers licenses and insurance 3) will be able to work decent jobs that will give them enough to support their family, while also giving them free time 4) to learn English fairly rapidly. The gov't would know exactly who's here and since when. EVERYbody can get taxes taken out and contribute. There would be no need for fake SSNs.

If it were easier to get here legally, everybody would win. As Spacenurse says, when everybody does better, everybody does better.

Kcochrane, where did you get the numbers for your post about how many people share a SSN and how many people use fake ones? Just curious, I'd like to check it out for myself.

[jyoung1950]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich

. . . . .The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, a . . . . .

I'm a little confused. Since when does anyone get reimbursed for their contributions to SS & Medicare of they aren't around to enjoy the benefits of old age? For instance, if I die when I'm 55, my heirs don't get a reimbursement on all the money I've contributed to SS & Medicare. Is this magazine suggesting that illegal immigrants should get all their money back?

[jyoung1950]

<b><i>. . . . . I don't know how many people y'all have talked to, but all the illegal immigrants I've met, worked with, talked with, etc. would MUCH rather be here legally. But under current immigration law, they have no realistic chance of doing so. . . . .</b></i><p>

Why not? I work with many people who are from other countries who became citizens of the U.S. under the current immigration law.

Rather than spend a whole lot of money over our border, the way to solve things is to fine companies who hire illegals. That is against the law also. And they probably are also paying them bare minimum wage or probably alot of them under the table.

And in this situation, is it right that jobs that used to pay more than minimum wage are out of reach to citizens of this country.

I've read posts on this board concerned that foreign nurses could quite possibly bring down the wages of the rest of the nurses who were born, raised and educated here. Looks like it's a big deal when it comes to our choice of occupation but too bad for the American carpenter or landscaper or farm worker. Too bad for those who used to like the work they did but can't do it or afford it anymore because of the influx of cheap illegal immigrant labor bringing down the wage.

They are here because their own country - Mexico - won't enable an environment of fair wages and work. That is a terrible shame, I agree.

[jyoung1950]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

I'm not saying that it's ok one way or the other to use SSNs for work purposes. I'm just refuting the "they don't pay taxes" argument. However, I don't know a single illegal immigrant -- and I know a lot -- that has used a SSN for anything, ANYTHING other than getting a job. I'm not saying that it can't, doesn't, or won't happen, but it's not the majority of people. And how is it any more wrong if the person stealing my identity is an illegal immigrant than a homegrown American? If it's wrong it's wrong, period. Immigration status of the identity thief is a secondary issue for me.

There is a big difference IMO between using a SSN just to get a job and using it to finance a house, buy a car, get a credit card. Right or wrong, they are still paying taxes.

Again, I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying there is a difference. And, as previously stated, if it were easier for people to get here to begin with, we might not be having this conversation.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to put yourself in the shoes of another and see that there but for the grace of God. Why does compassion have to stop in America? I don't get it.

Please don't suggest that those of us who recognize that this issue can cause hardships down the line for Americans are uncompassionate. I really am tired of people telling me that since I don't want to open the doors to let people take things that I have paid for that I need to be more compassionate. Do you really think that I sit at home and smirk and laugh at the poor plight of people in countries that abuse their citizens. I hate that the world is like that. But I need to survive too and I wouldn't be much good to anybody, including myself, if I emptied my pockets and my very means of survival to every poor soul. And collectively, this is what is happening to the citizens of this country.

Americans are more generous to other countries both via government charity and our own personal charity than almost any other country. I refuse to have someone insinuate that we are all a bunch of cold-hearted misers.

So please don't ask again that we need to be more compassionate.

[jyoung1950]

Originally Posted by TNNURSE

Well...you have a point there.I cant argue with that.But..at what point...at what point do we "overextend" ourselves in an \effort to help other countries at the cost of our own citizens?It is well known that alot of americans dont have access to healthcare and needed medications...I cant help but wonder...when enough "helping" is enough?Does anyone worrry that our overextension with other countries and their citizens is going to one day soon weaken the USA?Does anyone else ever think about that?

I do.