[Elvish]

Easy there, TN. I am from the South too. I didn't mean any personal offense by the redneck bit. My point was that had the driver been a white English speaking citizen, would the to-do have been made? I'm sorry if I offended. It wasn't my intent, as I am from the rural South myself.

I continue to say that if you want them to be here legally -- which most of them would want for themselves -- then lobby congress to make it easier for them. The rules are not the same for everybody! And they should be. It's not fair for Cubans to automatically get residency if they can reach US soil, when they are essentially doing the same thing as other Latin Americans coming here illegally, just because the US isn't a fan of Cuban gov't. It's not fair that the US doesn't require visas of people from many European countries for a short visit but that Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, etc. have to wait almost an entire generation for their visas, if they are even lucky enough to be granted one. I wouldn't wait either, if my children were hungry.

As for "but should the usa have to shoulder the burden of those here illegally bc their gvt cant provide for them" , do you think maybe people were saying the same thing when 1/3 of Ireland rolled up on our shores in the wake of the 1848 potato famine?? You can say that they came here legally, but did they all? They came here with no idea whether they'd be accepted into the country or not. Much research that I have done about the subject indicates that a lot of people several generations back snuck into the USA without inspection, or that were deemed 'unacceptable' upon inspection stayed here illegally anyway. The current generation of illegal immigrants is by no means the first.

Here is my solution: Make the rules the same for everybody. Cut out a lot of the crap and red tape and stupid paperwork and make it easier for good people of any nationality that want to be here, make it possible for them to be here legally. I have not met a single illegal immigrant that, given the realistic choice, would choose to be an illegal immigrant.

Ok, now that the rules are the same for everybody, once you are here: 1) you have a certain amount of time (3 years? 5 years? More? Less?) to take and pass an English proficiency test. Not rocket science, just basic English to show you can get by. 2) Please abide by the country's laws. 3) Pay taxes. 4) If you become a US citizen, please vote, and don't shirk your jury duty should you be called.

I am a Christian. I realize that not everybody is, and I'm not trying to start the religion debate. Immigration is heated enough. But the reason I feel as strongly as I do is that the Bible I read says that aliens in our land are to be treated as our neighbors. We are commanded to love them as ourselves, and passage in my siggy line is not the only one that says so. There is no provision for asking ourselves whether they are here legally or not when we decide whether or not to love them.

Finally, I would like to submit that just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. Just because it's legal doesn't make it ok. You can ask the Good Samaritan, Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Dr. King, Nelson Mandela. They were all lawbreakers. And the horrendous things Hitler did were perfectly legal in Nazi Germany.

[Elvish]

Also, some good books to read:

Enrique's Journey by Sonia Nazario
By the Lake of Sleeping Children and The Devil's Highway by Luis Alberto Urrea
With These Hands by Daniel Rothenberg
Americanos: Latino Life in the United States by Edward James Olmos, Carlos Fuentes, and Lea Ybarra

These books all are worth reading, and give a much deeper view of both sides of the immigration (legal and illegal, and on both sides of the border) issue than what we see in the news, read in the papers, or hear on the street. All are easy to read and worth your time.

[kcochrane]

TN as to your claims that immigrants pay no taxes I would point out that they do pay sales tax on just about everything they buy and that there are reputable sources out there that actually assert a lower consumption by immigrants of public services. But the real issue is that it is in our collective interest to have them view themselves as a part of our community and society.

Boy if all I had to pay was sales tax, I might be able to make ends meet without working overtime.
The fact is that we do need to know who is here and why. We need to secure the border and create more work visas, since there are jobs that need to be done. But having people here illegally does not help anyone, the illegal or the country.

[kcochrane]

Here is my solution: Make the rules the same for everybody. Cut out a lot of the crap and red tape and stupid paperwork and make it easier for good people of any nationality that want to be here, make it possible for them to be here legally. I have not met a single illegal immigrant that, given the realistic choice, would choose to be an illegal immigrant.

Ok, now that the rules are the same for everybody, once you are here: 1) you have a certain amount of time (3 years? 5 years? More? Less?) to take and pass an English proficiency test. Not rocket science, just basic English to show you can get by. 2) Please abide by the country's laws. 3) Pay taxes. 4) If you become a US citizen, please vote, and don't shirk your jury duty should you be called.

Totally agree..although you do need to secure the borders and enforce the immigration laws or there is no point in making changes. Remember we did the "amnesty" thing back in the 80's and we have an even larger illegal immigration problem.
It is true that crime committed by anyone is bad. The problem is when is it committed by someone here illegally, they do not "exist" - no paperwork, no trail to find them.
I understand that just because something is illegal it is not always wrong. We've had some pretty stupid laws over the history of country including segregation. But requiring people to apply and get paperwork to come to the country is a good law. Yes, maybe some parts of it need to be revamped.
Let me put it this way. I'm a nice person, I do speed, which is breaking the law. I will at some point be caught. Do you think I'm going to get off because I'm nice, haven't hurt anyone and actually contribute to society?
Laws are here for a reason and we cannot individually decide which ones we agree with and which ones we don't. But collectively we do have the power to change them LEGALLY.
Ok, its late and I just did a double..hope I make sense.

[susancoyotesfan]

I have absolutely no problem with giving universal health care to people not citizens of our country, and not here legally.....AS LONG AS IT IS ALSO AVAILABLE TO OUR OWN CITIZENS AS WELL.

I am still paying off a $10,000 medical bill for my now 21 year old son, who spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia when he was 16. Yes, I was working full time. No, I couldn't afford health insurance for him -- it was $583/month for the family plan. Dad was supposed to be providing health insurance but never did. I was told I made $50 PER YEAR too much to qualify for our state's medicaid program. $50 dollars??!?

And why, might you ask, did he end up in the hospital? Why wasn't I a responsible mother and treated him earlier? Well one is that we didn't have insurance...and the other was that he got so dreadfully sick so quickly -- in 48 hours he went from being fine to almost being an ICU admit.

[Jessy_RN]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

Boy if all I had to pay was sales tax, I might be able to make ends meet without working overtime.
The fact is that we do need to know who is here and why. We need to secure the border and create more work visas, since there are jobs that need to be done. But having people here illegally does not help anyone, the illegal or the country.

I agree with you. BUT, at the same time-if only there were enough visas to go around........

I bet most don't want to be here illegally.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Easy there, TN. I am from the South too. I didn't mean any personal offense by the redneck bit. My point was that had the driver been a white English speaking citizen, would the to-do have been made? I'm sorry if I offended. It wasn't my intent, as I am from the rural South myself.

I continue to say that if you want them to be here legally -- which most of them would want for themselves -- then lobby congress to make it easier for them. The rules are not the same for everybody! And they should be. It's not fair for Cubans to automatically get residency if they can reach US soil, when they are essentially doing the same thing as other Latin Americans coming here illegally, just because the US isn't a fan of Cuban gov't. It's not fair that the US doesn't require visas of people from many European countries for a short visit but that Mexicans, Hondurans, Guatemalans, etc. have to wait almost an entire generation for their visas, if they are even lucky enough to be granted one. I wouldn't wait either, if my children were hungry.

As for "but should the usa have to shoulder the burden of those here illegally bc their gvt cant provide for them" , do you think maybe people were saying the same thing when 1/3 of Ireland rolled up on our shores in the wake of the 1848 potato famine?? You can say that they came here legally, but did they all? They came here with no idea whether they'd be accepted into the country or not. Much research that I have done about the subject indicates that a lot of people several generations back snuck into the USA without inspection, or that were deemed 'unacceptable' upon inspection stayed here illegally anyway. The current generation of illegal immigrants is by no means the first.

Here is my solution: Make the rules the same for everybody. Cut out a lot of the crap and red tape and stupid paperwork and make it easier for good people of any nationality that want to be here, make it possible for them to be here legally. I have not met a single illegal immigrant that, given the realistic choice, would choose to be an illegal immigrant.

....

I am a Christian. I realize that not everybody is, and I'm not trying to start the religion debate. Immigration is heated enough. But the reason I feel as strongly as I do is that the Bible I read says that aliens in our land are to be treated as our neighbors. We are commanded to love them as ourselves, and passage in my siggy line is not the only one that says so. There is no provision for asking ourselves whether they are here legally or not when we decide whether or not to love them.

Finally, I would like to submit that just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. Just because it's legal doesn't make it ok. You can ask the Good Samaritan, Rosa Parks, Gandhi, Dr. King, Nelson Mandela. They were all lawbreakers. And the horrendous things Hitler did were perfectly legal in Nazi Germany.

Barbara Ehrenrich makes a similar point in the Nation:

Medicare and Social Security, and here I quote the website of the San Diego ACLU:
Undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into Social Security, and $1.5 billion more into Medicare.... A study by the National Academy of Sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
...
There is still the issue of the original "crime." If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.

I can't guarantee that all of my relatives from Norway came here legally. They emigrated d/t poverty and lack of opportunity.

[Elvish]

Susan, I completely agree with you...anything like universal healthcare coverage (or any similar thing), if it is going to be offered to noncitizens (legal or otherwise) then of course it should be offered to US citizens.

I don't know how many people y'all have talked to, but all the illegal immigrants I've met, worked with, talked with, etc. would MUCH rather be here legally. But under current immigration law, they have no realistic chance of doing so.

So the ones that are already here, what do you suggest we do with them? The gov't has already made it clear they're not going to deport all however-many-million. They're probably just being realistic -- if we couldn't get half a million folks out of New Orleans after Katrina, people that wanted to be found, people concentrated all in one relatively small area -- what in the world makes us think we are going to find 12 million (conservative estimate) people nationwide who are not exactly waving their arms trying to be found? Mass deportation may sound really good, esp if you're Tom Tancredo, but it's just not realistic. You're talking about splitting up families -- parents from children, brothers and sisters, husbands from wives -- on a massive scale. So what do we do with them? Do we let them stay here illegally? Hasn't worked real well so far. Do we make them go home and start all over again, and wait 20 years for a visa? They won't go and we're back at square one. As much as it may rankle people to hear it, I say give them their papers (within certain parameters, of course) and move on.

I have no problem with those who want to enforce border security, that's all well and good. You can build a wall to China if you want to. But unless there is a realistic method of legal immigration, people will find ways around it. Desperation and hunger are huge motivators.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by susancoyotesfan

I have absolutely no problem with giving universal health care to people not citizens of our country, and not here legally.....AS LONG AS IT IS ALSO AVAILABLE TO OUR OWN CITIZENS AS WELL.

I am still paying off a $10,000 medical bill for my now 21 year old son, who spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia when he was 16. Yes, I was working full time. No, I couldn't afford health insurance for him -- it was $583/month for the family plan. Dad was supposed to be providing health insurance but never did. I was told I made $50 PER YEAR too much to qualify for our state's medicaid program. $50 dollars??!?

And why, might you ask, did he end up in the hospital? Why wasn't I a responsible mother and treated him earlier? Well one is that we didn't have insurance...and the other was that he got so dreadfully sick so quickly -- in 48 hours he went from being fine to almost being an ICU admit.

Susancoyotesfan...you are a perfect example of what my concern is!Here in the US...our funds are being stretched ....we are f unding sooo many projects for every country it seems like....and I feel like until every us citizen is cared for with their basic needs met ...we are doing a huge disservice by allocating funds for other countries issues.You are working fulltime...trying to raise your child and a huge chunk of your $$$$$ is being spent by the GVT to provide free healthcare to those that have chosen to come over here illegally.So ..as more enter into the US...more free healthcare is provided....and the more "OUT OF REACH" your ability to attain adequate affordable healthcare for your family becomes.Do illegals pay taxes...sure sales tax ....but they arent paying 25% of their check to taxes...and another 15-20% for healthcare insurance.Most have no "verifiable " work...so they qualify for state welfare insurances.Who pays for those programs?Taxpayers do.Things like this...can undermine a governments ability to care for its own citizens as this slowly has....and that is just wrong .IMO.It doesnt mean that illegal immigrants are "bad people"...it just means that they have broken the law and need to eneter here legally .I too do not feel like all immigration laws are balanced...but...come on....castro is a dictator who kills those who speak out against him...so if those guys can make it here onto dry sand and then REGISTER with the gvt I am ok with it if the GVT is!BC they can get jobs ...the gvt knows they are here.Same thing with the girls from somalia who were enduring sexual castration not so many years back...the gvt expedited their immigration process bc of that. So...at times I do think the gvt tries to do the most fair thing to those at "most risk of life/limb".Most americans do...want to help abroad ....but we also....need to be able to AFFORD to care for the needs of our own citizens too.AND...I am totally for securing the borders to prevent overpopulation from those seeking to enter the country illegally.Once they are here...we want them to be cared for.But ...this has gotten out of control folks to the point of it limiting our ability to care for our legal citizens. WHY...WHY do you think the gvt is limiting the number of Visa's approved from belize/central america and mexico?And are they truly limiting visas?If I worked in the INS dept Id probably fall out of my chair if I received a application from a mexican ..seriously folks.....issues like these can undermine a countries ability to care for its own citizens and our ability to help other countries with humanitarian efforts...and that is life.just as susancoyotesfan!

[Elvish]

And are they truly limiting visas?If I worked in the INS dept Id probably fall out of my chair if I received a application from a mexican.

TN, there are plenty of Mexicans who apply for entry. And an overwhelming majority of those apps are denied. That was a pretty insensitive thing to say, and not based in fact. A recent issue of TIME magazine had a really interesting article and photo montage...worth 3 minutes of your time to read.
http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...630049,00.html

We seem to keep going in circles. Whether or not it's ok for people to use a fake SSN is another can of worms...but most people in this area (and I really don't know why we would be the exception) use them. And guess what? They get taxes taken out just like you and I do. I'm not saying no one gets paid under the table. It happens. But it happens to US citizen babysitters and yardcare people, etc. too. But a whopping majority of those illegal immigrants who get their taxes taken out don't get them back at the end of the year like you and I do. That may, you say, be fair since they are not here legally. Fine. But it takes away the argument that 'they don't pay any taxes but sales tax.' Oh yes, they do.

True story:
A friend of mine is married to a Mexican guy who has been here long enough to become a US citizen. A few years ago he wanted to bring his parents here on a relative visa, which is generally known among immigration circles to be the easiest way to get here. He & his wife applied for them and were denied. They applied for work visas, and for tourist visas. All denied. My friend wrote US senators, INS, she even wrote President Bush. Nothing. Finally, one of the US senators from our state contacted the US Embassy in Mexico City and was flat-out denied, no reason given. If these people -- English-speaking, decent education, enough money to support their family, and have a US senator working on their behalf -- if THEY can't get a visa for their relative to come here legally, then what chance do you think a poor farmer from middle-of-nowhere Mexico has for himself??

My friend's in-laws are here now. Just not legally, but not because they didn't try.