[kcochrane]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Y'know, TN, we really don't see things THAT differently.

It just seems to me too often the issues are confused. In the incident you mentioned, the real issue is drunk driving. The fact that the driver was here illegally is a separate issue for me. Either way the people were just as dead. Alcoholism and drunk driving are a big source of shame to most of the Hispanic community. One of the Spanish-language newspapers in my area prints a list each week, to be seen by any who read, of Hispanics who have been arrested for driving drunk. The title at the top of the list reads, "Doesn't this make you ashamed?" I would be so bold as to say that for illegal immigrants, entering the country (or overstaying their visas) illegally is the only thing they have done wrong. Not trying to minimize the hurt that the family was caused by the accident, just stating that I think the issues are separate. Would as big a deal have been made had the driver been John Q. Redneck? Doubt it, but it's still just as wrong.

I don't think that the story you recounted is the 'untold' side at all. If anything, I think I hear more stories like that as a reason why we need to kick out all however-many-million and slam the door in their faces. Very rarely do I hear much positive about Hispanics in general, much less those who are here illegally. This is a touchy subject for me anyway, as I live in the Hispanic community.

My biggest issue has been, and continues to be, that the immigration laws are NOT the same for us all. Whereas one person may only have to wait a few months for their visa, the wait from most places in Latin America is around 20 years. And in the meantime, their families are supposed to starve, I guess. Makes me sick. And angry.

"...with liberty and justice FOR ALL."

(this is not directed at anyone in particular....though I did quote TNNURSE. And I'm also giving myself an for the entire post.)

I have to respectfully disagree. Most that are hear illegally are driving without drivers licenses and insurance. Unfortunately if they cause an accident with you, guess who pays? I don't know about you but having to pay a deductable on an accident that wasn't my fault just adds to my financial situation. Granted we have legals here that do that, but at least they can be brought before the court. Try finding someone that ran into you and then ran to sue them.
Many are using fack social security numbers and if you are the unlucky one that actually has someone using their number, have fun with the IRS. It is up to YOU to prove that it was not you that earned that money.
Unfortunately if you look at the numbers, most are draining far more resources than they are paying in taxes - in most cases they are not paying taxes. Either they don't make enough to pay or they are getting paid under the table.
On the flip side we have millions here that are able to be abused by their employers because they are afraid to call the police.
I agree that many of the illegals could add something positive to this country. But I not willing to have millions of people hear that have no accountablity or responsibilties to this country.
As I said before, I don't have a problem increasing the amount of people getting in...but that needs to be done not only with those from Mexico, but other countries with low quotas. We need to know who is here and who they are. It not only benefits those that live here legally, but helps those coming in protect themselves. It not only allows them to reap the benefits of the country, but gives them the responsibilities that others have here..taxes, insurance, etc.
Edited to add: I do agree with everyone else that nurses or medical personnel should not be the ones to be determining who is legal and who is illegal.

[Elvish]

Originally Posted by kcochrane

I have to respectfully disagree. Most that are hear illegally are driving without drivers licenses and insurance.

Ok, I have to respectfully disagree back.
How do you know that most do not own DLs? I live in the immigrant community in our area and know many illegal immigrants....and guess what? Most of them have drivers licenses! And if they don't, it's not for them not wanting to....many states have made it impossible for them to get DLs. I think that is a stupid idea, for the very reasons you mentioned in your post. A DL proves nothing about your immigration status, nor should it. It proves that you know the traffic laws. That's its purpose, and anything else is a misuse.

The fake SSN thing...it's not a big concern for me. Has this actually happened to you or someone you know? Otherwise, it sounds like hyperbole to me. There are a lot of people who will get on TV and talk about immigration when they know next to nothing about it. This sounds like one of those things. Most of the immigrants I have encountered (in the thousands, over the years) are not stupid enough to use John Smith's SSN when they look like a José or a Vladimir, or pick your nationality. Most of them use SSNs that are arbitrarily made up. So the odds that an illegal immigrant is going to actually be using YOUR name and SSN are probably really small. I'm not a statistician, but that seems logical to me. And if they did use it to get a job? You might have to prove to the IRS that you didn't earn that $$ but then you'd have to give back all that nice Medicare and Social Security that got taken out on your behalf. Cause the person, if they are an illegal immigrant, is probably not going to file taxes at the end of the year to get any of it back.

And if they don't pay taxes because they don't make enough, what is the big deal about that? Americans wouldn't have to either, so I don't get what the complaint is.

We seem to agree that the quotas should be raised from high-volume areas. And I agree with you that it shouldn't just be Mexico...India, China, and the Philippines are a just a few other places I could name.

I'm not attacking you, it just seems that there is a lot of misinformation/misperception floating around out there. I have a bit of a unique perspective and feel compelled to add my side to the debate whenever I see/hear said misinformation.

Also worth checking out:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?sid=415
http://www.justiceforimmigrants.org/myths.html

*once again, stepping down*

[kcochrane]

Arwen U,
Gotta disagree back..but I do enjoy the debate..thanks.

Regarding the SSN- ever deal with the IRS? It is up to you to prove that you didn not earn that money. I don't know about you, but I really can't afford a lawyer at $200/hr to help me with something like this. I guess until it happens to you it probably isn't an issue.
Here is some info on the problem:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

One of my co-workers got back from Florida and had a lady run into her car. Because the lady was illegal, had no DL and no insurance, they pretty much told her to write it off. Now mind you this is just one story. BTW there are only 11 states that allow illegal immigrants to get DLs. So if most illegals have dl, then how did they get them?

Listen we could go back and forth all day on this issue, but the fact is that both the US and illegal immigrants would be better off if we made more work visas and let them come back in legally. We need to know who is here. I would bet that most illegals would prefer to be getting their own SSN's and paying their own share. Come on in and share the benefits and responsiblities with me.

We probably agree more than we think we do.

[Elvish]

Most illegals that I know have their licenses because they got them before states passed the laws that made it impossible. So who knows what's going to happen when those licenses expire...it's probably going to get a lot worse. I don't like that idea because the very thing can happen like you mentioned -- someone hits me with no insurance, I get left with the bill. I think it's in everybody's best interest to give illegal immigrants licenses to avoid exactly that scenario.

I totally agree with you that we need to expand the visa program, and fix the situation for those that are here illegally. I can tell you from personal experience that most people would rather NOT be here illegally but have found coming here any other way impossible. Most would gladly share the responsibilities with you if they were allowed to. Those who would not, I believe, are a very small minority.

It seems that we more or less want the same thing, just from different perspective and maybe (or maybe not) for different reasons.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Y'know, TN, we really don't see things THAT differently.

It just seems to me too often the issues are confused. In the incident you mentioned, the real issue is drunk driving. The fact that the driver was here illegally is a separate issue for me. Either way the people were just as dead. Alcoholism and drunk driving are a big source of shame to most of the Hispanic community. One of the Spanish-language newspapers in my area prints a list each week, to be seen by any who read, of Hispanics who have been arrested for driving drunk. The title at the top of the list reads, "Doesn't this make you ashamed?" I would be so bold as to say that for illegal immigrants, entering the country (or overstaying their visas) illegally is the only thing they have done wrong. Not trying to minimize the hurt that the family was caused by the accident, just stating that I think the issues are separate. Would as big a deal have been made had the driver been John Q. Redneck? Doubt it, but it's still just as wrong.

I don't think that the story you recounted is the 'untold' side at all. If anything, I think I hear more stories like that as a reason why we need to kick out all however-many-million and slam the door in their faces. Very rarely do I hear much positive about Hispanics in general, much less those who are here illegally. This is a touchy subject for me anyway, as I live in the Hispanic community.

My biggest issue has been, and continues to be, that the immigration laws are NOT the same for us all. Whereas one person may only have to wait a few months for their visa, the wait from most places in Latin America is around 20 years. And in the meantime, their families are supposed to starve, I guess. Makes me sick. And angry.

"...with liberty and justice FOR ALL."

(this is not directed at anyone in particular....though I did quote TNNURSE. And I'm also giving myself an for the entire post.)

Hmm...I think you may have been missing my point/opinion. I have alot of friends that have came from all over the world and immigrated here legally. They have worked very hard for a very long time to gain citizenship.But when they came here...they came legally. This family that I described....a mom and dad were DOA because of that drunk drivers poor decisions.He made the decision break US laws and to come to the usa illegally...he then made another decision to again break US laws and drive drunk....his decisions to break the law did make headlines here in Alabama.This child lost both parents bc this person was here and made poor decisions once he was here.Would it have been less of a tragedy if John q redneck ( which by the way I so dont appreciate bc this state has one of the world best research hospitals -UAB )...but if it was John q redneck...it would be no less/or no more sad.But ...the fact that he elected to come here illegally to most made it appear as if he had no respect for the laws of this country.And this...is thepoint! He broke the law to come here...he continued to break the law after being here.We need to have "control" of who comes in/out of our borders....to protect people like this family.I dont think anyone...would say that the majority of any race/ethnicity is like that with no regard to us laws.BUt how do we "KNOW" what kind of people we are allowing to STAY in the US IF IF...they didnt enter legally. If they arent here legally...we dont know if they have drug charges pending...are they murderers?...or are they skilled workers who honestly want to just work and make a better place for their family? The fact is....we dont know. WE DO NOT KNOW>>>WE DO NOT NOT KNOW! And the reason we dont know is they entered illegally and the people who WOULD KNOW....arent allowed to do their jobs and screen them as they enter legally.So yes...this is a safety risk to all here in THE USA. Does the overcrowding place a burden on our governement?yes it does.....it reduces the funds available to provide for our elderly..our disabled...our sick.It is a huge burden.They pay no taxes...but utilize many public services and so it does affect our ability to care for the ones here legally...so I'd just like to have everyone enter here legally so that we can screen them so that more families arent burying their sons/daughters and raising grandchildren who are orphans...and on the same token....those immigrants need to pay taxes so that theyand their families can take advantage of all services available to legal ciitizens. I have many friends who cam here legally...were screened by immigration....and who are great citizens .They go to work, pay their taxes and were initially screened by INS and if they died today then their families would have access to services like social security etc etc that will help.I ...can see both sides of this....I can see how desperation would make them want to enter the usa illegally.So...what is the answer....One of the answers is border control...another answer is doubling law enforcement officers duties to screen for immigration status on calls/stops they make....I am HOPING ....HOPING...that the gvt doesnt extend that "screening process" to healthcare workers....bc if I wanted to be in law enforcement...Id have been a cop.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Ok, I have to respectfully disagree back.
How do you know that most do not own DLs? I live in the immigrant community in our area and know many illegal immigrants....and guess what? Most of them have drivers licenses! And if they don't, it's not for them not wanting to....many states have made it impossible for them to get DLs. I think that is a stupid idea, for the very reasons you mentioned in your post. A DL proves nothing about your immigration status, nor should it. It proves that you know the traffic laws. That's its purpose, and anything else is a misuse.

The fake SSN thing...it's not a big concern for me. Has this actually happened to you or someone you know? Otherwise, it sounds like hyperbole to me. There are a lot of people who will get on TV and talk about immigration when they know next to nothing about it. This sounds like one of those things. Most of the immigrants I have encountered (in the thousands, over the years) are not stupid enough to use John Smith's SSN when they look like a José or a Vladimir, or pick your nationality. Most of them use SSNs that are arbitrarily made up. So the odds that an illegal immigrant is going to actually be using YOUR name and SSN are probably really small. I'm not a statistician, but that seems logical to me. And if they did use it to get a job? You might have to prove to the IRS that you didn't earn that $$ but then you'd have to give back all that nice Medicare and Social Security that got taken out on your behalf. Cause the person, if they are an illegal immigrant, is probably not going to file taxes at the end of the year to get any of it back.

And if they don't pay taxes because they don't make enough, what is the big deal about that? Americans wouldn't have to either, so I don't get what the complaint is.

We seem to agree that the quotas should be raised from high-volume areas. And I agree with you that it shouldn't just be Mexico...India, China, and the Philippines are a just a few other places I could name.

I'm not attacking you, it just seems that there is a lot of misinformation/misperception floating around out there. I have a bit of a unique perspective and feel compelled to add my side to the debate whenever I see/hear said misinformation.

Also worth checking out:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intel...le.jsp?sid=415
http://www.justiceforimmigrants.org/myths.html

*once again, stepping down*

Hmm...and the reason those states wont allow them to get drivers liscences is because they entered the USA ILLEGALLY! So....the gvt cant grant them liscences....bc...in the eyes of the gvt they could potentially pose a risk thus why the INS is here .They need to be screened.And yes....idenity theft is everywhere....and yes....I have been the victim of it.It was horrible.It is a major issue....and it damages you and your sense of trust.In california...a mailtruck was stolen....credit cards obtained.....ss checks...etc etc....and many many peoples personal information was "sold" to people who in turn victimized many of us thru idenity theft.It is more common than you think....most people just dont check the credit reports to see that they are being victimized.Its really scary...when it happens to you.

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by Arwen_U

Most illegals that I know have their licenses because they got them before states passed the laws that made it impossible. So who knows what's going to happen when those licenses expire...it's probably going to get a lot worse. I don't like that idea because the very thing can happen like you mentioned -- someone hits me with no insurance, I get left with the bill. I think it's in everybody's best interest to give illegal immigrants licenses to avoid exactly that scenario.

I totally agree with you that we need to expand the visa program, and fix the situation for those that are here illegally. I can tell you from personal experience that most people would rather NOT be here illegally but have found coming here any other way impossible. Most would gladly share the responsibilities with you if they were allowed to. Those who would not, I believe, are a very small minority.

It seems that we more or less want the same thing, just from different perspective and maybe (or maybe not) for different reasons.

I too agree that there are probably a small minority that wouldnt be great citizens...but I feel like we shouldnt "give them" access to things like US validity like a liscence.Those displays of "validity" need to be reserved for ones that are here legally. I feel like people who are skilled in evaluating visas need to be allowed to do their jobs...and I will continue to do mine...I only hope that those 2 jobs dont get intertwined in the future.I can see both sides of this....and my heart goes out to those woth long waits....but should the usa have to shoulder the burden of those here illegally bc their gvt cant provide for them an adequate source of jobs? It just seems like...until we as americans can take care of everyone here in the US that needs services/food/ shelter and healthcare and medication for all the sick and elderly and kids here in the usa that needs it......arent we doing everyone a disservice by not policing our borders?Have we gotten off topic here?hmm...

[HM2Viking]

Another viewpoint:

With immigration reform jettisoned from the national agenda, the mayor of New Haven, Conn., is resurrecting the debate in his own backyard. Rejecting the morally charged rhetoric that conservatives have used to cast opprobrium on "free-riding" aliens, Mayor John DeStefano is arguing that there are significant benefits associated with the inclusion of illegal immigrants in civil society.
Although these non-voting immigrants are politically peripheral, New Haven officials estimate that they comprise ten percent of the city's population. In an effort to acknowledge and validate the presence of this community, the board of aldermen has approved a municipal ID -- the first of its kind in any American city -- that is universally available to all New Haven residents, regardless of citizenship status. The ID will enable immigrants to fill prescriptions and access local banks, libraries, and public services. Most importantly, it will designate them as full-fledged participants in civil society.
...
City officials claim that recognizing the presence of a large number of non-citizens will benefit all New Haven residents, and they have won broad public support for the municipal ID by promoting its practical virtues instead of its ideological ones. According to Board of Aldermen President Carl Goldfield, the Elm City ID "is above all a pragmatic policy -- and one that benefits the whole city." He continued, "From a public health and public safety standpoint, it doesn't make sense to have 10,000 members of a community afraid to get medical help or report crime, just because they're undocumented."
...
New Haven's police department has been working closely with pubic officials to encourage immigrants to cooperate in investigations. Last year, DeStefano put into writing a longstanding NHPD protocol with General Order 06-2, which prohibits police officers from inquiring about the citizenship status of a victim or witness to a crime.
http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...local_identity

TN as to your claims that immigrants pay no taxes I would point out that they do pay sales tax on just about everything they buy and that there are reputable sources out there that actually assert a lower consumption by immigrants of public services. But the real issue is that it is in our collective interest to have them view themselves as a part of our community and society.

[HM2Viking]

What have the immigrants been doing once they get into the US? Taking up time on the elliptical trainers in our health clubs? Getting ahead of us on the wait-lists for elite private nursery schools?
In case you don't know what immigrants do in this country, the Latinos have a word for it--trabajo. They've been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking.
...
The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, and here I quote the website of the San Diego ACLU:
Undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into Social Security, and $1.5 billion more into Medicare.... A study by the National Academy of Sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
...
There is still the issue of the original "crime." If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich

[TNNURSE]

Originally Posted by HM2Viking

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich

I am simply asking a question...."HOW" can they pay into social security "IF" they are here illegally?They have to provide things like a social security number...and those are reserved for people entering the country via legal means with the exception of idenity theft. I undertsand they pay taxes on goods and services....but not social security/medicare. I am not sure that openly giving citizenship to anyone who elects to enter into the USA is the answer.Thats just my opinion. I do worry that at times it seems like our gvt is providing benefits to those that enter here illegally and that robs money that could be used for those that need healthcare..meds...treatment....that fall between the cracks.It is worrisome...that some of these towns can openly say they feel like 10% of their population is here illegally. I cant help but feel that it is a POTENTIAL safety risk. I know...that most are trying to escape poverty...and make a better life for their family. My heart goes out to them....but am i wrong to want them to be screened?Am I wrong to want our gvt to provide access to healthcare to everyone here legally that needs healthcare , medicine....etc etc?
Its a catch 22...once here....you can not turn them away when they present to your hospital bc they at times wait till they are so very very sick before seeking medical treatment. and they are soooo very sick ...this is why I am saying...its not fair to them either.But to strengthen our community we need to have the gvt funds to do this.Most state and city budgets cant afford to do this though and at times....bc funds are tight projects for communities get cut.So...I am respectfully asking what is the answer?BC I ..as many of you....also see the citizens who are uninsured and have to postphone healthcare woes till its almost too late.so...what is some valid answers?I am asking for your thoughts,,....I dont want "immigrant bashing"...or "gvt bashing"...I want what YOU think could be the answer????