[headsup]

Originally Posted by llg

It sounds as if you and I have views that are very similar. But I think it is really hard to write good social policy on such a complex issue -- even if a majority of the people are pretty much in agreement on the basic principles. That's why I try to stay flexible and tolerant of the governments attempts to provide services to all. I doubt I could do much better myself.

I quoted your line above to point another complexity: Do you really mean that government should not provide assistance to colleges or to students who need assistance? I doubt you really mean that.

NO NO NO!!!

I don't mean that at all.
What I mean is that basic education up to 12th grade is free to everyone regardless of citizenship or economic level. College and universities are not free...(although I could make a really good case that I think they should be to those that keep their grade point level at a certain minimum....but that is another thread...!!)

So I was drawing (in my mind) a comparison between education (as a right) and health care (as a right).

[ingelein]

The access to free health care is not a legal right at this time, BUT that does not mean that it wont be some time in the future. There are grass root groups and even legislators that will take the step to MAKE it a RIGHT to have health care for all, some time in the forseeable future.This train has left the station, hope that fair and just folks can see to it that this train does not get derailed before it gets there.

Here is my state's , health care proposal, which by the way, states that health care access is a RIGHT ;
http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/HealthyW...f/proposal.pdf

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by ingelein

The access to free health care is not a legal right at this time, BUT that does not mean that it wont be some time in the future. There are grass root groups and even legislators that will take the step to MAKE it a RIGHT to have health care for all, some time in the forseeable future.This train has left the station, hope that fair and just folks can see to it that this train does not get derailed before it gets there.

Here is my state's , health care proposal, which by the way, states that health care access is a RIGHT ;
http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/HealthyW...f/proposal.pdf

Mmmm, I think this is something different.

Right now there is noone denied the right to healthcare. Free healthcare? Different story. And I don't know that it's either logistically or logically possible to make FREE healthcare a right.

I'm trying to think of anyone in our population that is denied any rights when it comes to healthcare, and I can't think of anyone.

[HM2Viking]

Originally Posted by DarrenWright

Mmmm, I think this is something different.

Right now there is noone denied the right to healthcare. Free healthcare? Different story. And I don't know that it's either logistically or logically possible to make FREE healthcare a right.

I'm trying to think of anyone in our population that is denied any rights when it comes to healthcare, and I can't think of anyone.

Every story, every tale, every vignette asks the same question: "Who are we?" Who are we that our fellow citizens have to decide which fingers they'll pay to get reattached? Who are we that our hospitals push the ill and indigent into cabs, and drop them off, disoriented and clad in a paper-thin gown, on skid row? Who are we that we let insurers deny coverage to our neighbors because they are too tall, or have too many seasonal allergies? Who are we that we don't guarantee paid sick leave, or vacations, or child care, leaving that all instead to the whims of employers? And most of all, who are we to have let national pride blind us to these better alternatives, and let moneyed interests and powerful lobbies construct a country that best serves their needs rather than ours?

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?arti...or_your_health

[SMK1]

Originally Posted by headsup

I would do a poll on this, but I do not know how to - or maybe you need to be a premium member.

At any rate, I would like to hear some discussion on whether you feel health care is a right or not.

I personally do.

I think it is a right. Basic healthcare and emergent medicine shuuld be accesible. Elective procedures, cosmetic and to some extent bariatric (i saw an average height 200 pound 18 year old that was going in for a bypass!) procedures are not a right.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by SMK1

I think it is a right. Basic healthcare and emergent medicine shuuld be accesible. Elective procedures, cosmetic and to some extent bariatric (i saw an average height 200 pound 18 year old that was going in for a bypass!) procedures are not a right.

Not sure how one kind of health care can be a right, and another can't.

It doesn't matter if it's elective, such as cosmetic surgery...it should still be our right to pursue.

I think people need to realize that having the "right" to access something or do something does not mean we are guaranteed free access. Remember my previous post; gun ownership is a right, but it doesn't mean the gov't buys our guns for us. The moment that health care becomes "free" simply because it's defined as a right according to some constitutional interpretation, that's the moment I exercise my same right to gun and property ownership and vacations (my pursuit of happiness) and submit my receipts for my new Glock and a lakefront villa.

As it stands now, I have the right to my guns and property and vacations, but I still have to pay for them myself. Not sure how officially defining health care as a "right" will make it any different. Not sure how making only certain kinds of health care a "right" makes any sense.

[llg]

I think DarrenWright is bringing up some good points. Does having a right to something obligate society to provide it for free? Does our obligation to allow a person to receive healthcare include removing ALL the possible barriers for them (such as lack of money)?

Most people have a "gut feeling" that society should pay for a certain level of basic services, especially for children. But as I said in an earlier post, where and how do we draw the line? I don't see the people claiming that health care is a right coming up with any possible answers to my question. They are just saying it's a right and stopping at that.

[CRNI-ICU20]

DarrenWright,
I don't know what your age is, but you might want to rethink your position on people who were denied THEIR RIGHTS to health care back in the late 80's and early 90's because they developed/acquired HIV-AIDS.....not all of them were gay men...some were the unfortunate folks who received a tainted blood transfusion...some were children who had hemophelia, and could no longer afford Factor 8 for maintaining their life......and their INSURANCE COMPANY DROPPED THEM.... they were denied health care because they no longer had insurance to cover the costs of medical treatment...
In fact, to this day, every insurance company in this nation has a DENIAL department.....people who actually spend their whole day lookin for reasons to DENY a policy holder healthcare coverage....they research all kinds of old records on each and every one of us...they have amazing access to personal information....I think you would be shocked to know what they know about you....right down to how many traffic tickets you have ever had...( I know this to be true, I have a close friend who actually worked for a time in this kind of job....she could tell you what color your pubic hair was!!)
yes...these uninsured could go to XYZ hospital in the middle of the night to some emergency room and gain "access" to medical care....but then those same people are being chastised by even some of us here for using up limited resources for going to the ER 'instead of their doctor'....well if they can't see a doctor because they are refused for not having health care coverage, how are they supposed to get help for their medical needs? There aren't medical clinics in every village...some places are too remote...or medical clinics only treat certain types of illnesses... One thing that is certain, these human beings are just as deserving of health care as a basic human right as you or I....
Why you seen to find this disdainful is a puzzle to me....would you elaborate?

[SMK1]

[quote=DarrenWright;2274327]Not sure how one kind of health care can be a right, and another can't.

It doesn't matter if it's elective, such as cosmetic surgery...it should still be our right to pursue.

QUOTE]

It DOES matter if it is elective. The population in our country right now who do have "free" healthcare have no access within that plan to receive elective rhinoplasty or breast augmentation. That is as it should be. It is not necessary for their physical well being. All children have the "right" to receive a public school education, but anything above and beyond that is the responsibility of the parents (private schools, tutoring and the like). Things like these are luxury items and are above and beyond what is necessary. How you are equating the right to vacation ownership and luxury villas to the right to recieve necessary medical treatment is beyond me. There is next to zero chance that your life will be endangered by not having access to vacation property and land, however there is a great possibility that at some point a person's lack of access to basic medical care will endanger their life.

[HM2Viking]

The opposition to single payer seems to be hung up on the word "free." A careful reading of most posts advocating single payer revolve around a mandatory level of coverage paid for by the beneficiary through tax payments with the lowest administrative costs possible. I certainly think that a system similar to the French system would meet the desires of most patients.

True provider choice
Everyone in/no optouts allowed
Supplemental insurance available so you can access additional care as you desire.
Chronic illnesses covered without copays d/t the high cost of complications
prescription drug cost sharing based on evidence based results


There is plenty of data available (even in the US) that shows government as the administrator delivers better payment services at a lower cost than any of the private insurers. Putting the profit motive in the equation drives costs up by definition. At some point we all have to live together in society and build for the common good.