[ingelein]

Originally Posted by KellNY

Gardens are a great wonderful way to grow healthy food! And seeds are super cheap.

Excellent.

Now tell that to the people living in the ghettos, to the people living on the 5th floor of a walk up high rise, to the people who move from relative to friend to relative's house because they cannot afford rent, to people living in homeless shelters, to the people living in an appartment complex who's owners do not allow vegetable/fruit gardens, to the people who live in a basement appartment who are not permitted use of the yard.

And yes, seeds can be sown in a coffee can. But really, how many coffee cans full of plants would it take to feed one person for a day? And many plants would simply not thrive in such a confined area--watermellon, pumpkins, grapes, pecan and apple and orange trees? Most people aren't lucky enough to live in that kind of world.

Most people can't walk or bike to their local neighborhood farm, because well, they don't have a local neighborhood farm. Nor do they have wild berries to be picked-at least not enough to provide any significant sources of food.

It's very sad that so many of you assume that most of these children are born to "bottom feeders" and whatnot. Do you not realize that many of these children once were above the poverty level? Parents lose jobs. They get evicted. They get sick. They have to care for elderly parents. They get divorced or dad skips town. Yeah, he should pay child support....but since he's not, these kids should go hungry? That'll learn em!


And there certainly is something wrong with growing up poor when it means obesity, malnutrition, poor muscle mass, decreased energy, lower test scores, increased risk of DM, increased susceptibility to illnesses, increased risk for low birthweight and preterm babies, etc. There is something very wrong with that.

And to pop your Bootstrapping Bubble here, when other kids grow up poor, they're more likely to grow up to be poor adults, and it hurts the whole economy. And that effects you, so you should care, if not in a humanitarian way.

Wow,thanks for giving every "gardener" here a reality bite. How many coffee cans will it take to grow a years worth of vegies? Hope their apartment has southern exposure. Some folks are so busy being judgemental, they cannot see beyond their own comfort zone.

[tntrn]

At the outset, I will say that my DH and I are quite comfortable financially. That being said, in addition to the taxes we are forced to pay, we donate regularly to the food bank, and also to our church each and every time there is a natural disaster anywhere in the world. Every cent of those donations go directly to the needful, none to administrative costs. In addition, we donate to several other charities and causes.

Why oh, why, do people feel that those who have lots of money, don't deserve it, didn't really earn it, and have to be told how to spend it? Most very wealthy people pay plenty in taxes and also are huge donaters.

But on this premise, I can think of three or four people who live within 1/4 mile of us, and wow! they make more money that we do. I think I'll just be TELLING them that they owe me dinner every night. For which I won't really be grateful, might complain about the quality, and will in short time, require them to clothe me and provide my medical care also.

[KellNY]

Originally Posted by tntrn

Most very wealthy people pay plenty in taxes and also are huge donaters.

But on this premise, I can think of three or four people who live within 1/4 mile of us, and wow! they make more money that we do. I think I'll just be TELLING them that they owe me dinner every night.

Viking posted plenty of links--do you have any to prove that "most" very wealthy people are huge donors?

And you wanting a free dinner from your neighbors....yes, that's the same thing as a child not growing up with proper nutrition...

[tntrn]

No, I have no such list. And I don't believe that they (or I) should have to divulge that information. However, Bill Gates, for example, gives away millions. Of course, he makes billions. I suppose that means he should be taxed even more because he makes the most. The more you tax people, the less they have to give away. Some people will never understand that I guess. And those children? While I feel for them, it's their parents who should be feeding them, not me and not you. It's a trite statement, but people who cannot provide should not reproduce.

[KellNY]

Originally Posted by tntrn

those children? While I feel for them, it's their parents who should be feeding them, not me and not you. It's a trite statement, but people who cannot provide should not reproduce.

But they do reproduce...and their children suffer--which makes society as a whole suffer. When you turn your back on them, you're turning your back on everyone, because everyone is effected. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

Proper nutrition can prevent a number of problems--problems that, in the future, will cost taxpayers a lot more money (preterm birth stands out to me--mother delivers a 30 weeker due to poor nutrition, now the baby has a NICU stay--thousands of dollars PER NIGHT there, at 3yrs old he needs speech therapy and Head Start, at 7 he's admitted into a Special Ed program at school, which will cost tax payers tens of thousands per school year. I'm not even going to comment on what this will do for his earning potential-ie his tax paying potential).

And I've said it before, but I guess it needs to be said again--not all children currently in poverty were born into it. YOU could be poor this time next year, and that means your kids would be too. Boo!

And "divulge that information"? For crying out loud, I was asking for a source to your claim, not a scanned copy of your W2s.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by KellNY

Gardens are a great wonderful way to grow healthy food! And seeds are super cheap.

Excellent.

Now tell that to the people living in the ghettos, to the people living on the 5th floor of a walk up high rise, to the people who move from relative to friend to relative's house because they cannot afford rent, to people living in homeless shelters, to the people living in an appartment complex who's owners do not allow vegetable/fruit gardens, to the people who live in a basement appartment who are not permitted use of the yard.

And yes, seeds can be sown in a coffee can. But really, how many coffee cans full of plants would it take to feed one person for a day? And many plants would simply not thrive in such a confined area--watermellon, pumpkins, grapes, pecan and apple and orange trees? Most people aren't lucky enough to live in that kind of world.

Most people can't walk or bike to their local neighborhood farm, because well, they don't have a local neighborhood farm. Nor do they have wild berries to be picked-at least not enough to provide any significant sources of food.

It's very sad that so many of you assume that most of these children are born to "bottom feeders" and whatnot. Do you not realize that many of these children once were above the poverty level? Parents lose jobs. They get evicted. They get sick. They have to care for elderly parents. They get divorced or dad skips town. Yeah, he should pay child support....but since he's not, these kids should go hungry? That'll learn em!


And there certainly is something wrong with growing up poor when it means obesity, malnutrition, poor muscle mass, decreased energy, lower test scores, increased risk of DM, increased susceptibility to illnesses, increased risk for low birthweight and preterm babies, etc. There is something very wrong with that.

And to pop your Bootstrapping Bubble here, when other kids grow up poor, they're more likely to grow up to be poor adults, and it hurts the whole economy. And that effects you, so you should care, if not in a humanitarian way.

I didn't create the ghetto's. I don't make people live there. They are not prisons, nor are they unescapable.

What you fail to realize is that there is a limit to what can be provided to people who always seem to be down on their luck.

For one thing, I take offense to the tone of your post, which is nothing less than judgemental of me...when I grew up poor and made the most of it instead of expecting folks like you to attempt to instill shame in others for issues of no fault of theirs. Lucky enough? It wasn't luck...it was necessity, or we'd be hungry. Mind you, I grew up with childhood asthma and parents that drank as hard as they worked, and I functioned with my parents and my siblings in a role as provider because I would walk or ride to the orchard and pick the berries...and such an idea would be just an awful expectation of children today.

I don't live in a bubble, I grew up poor, and to bring you back to reality, the primary reason poor kids become poor adults is because people like you keep repeating that it's the way things are, instead of sharing the news that they need to do something like myself (and most of my siblings did), to get out of poverty, and instead focusing on what everyone else should be sacrificing to continue the cycle of poverty. No-one ever went from poor to non-poor because of a social program, but instead of what they did for themselves. And before you engage in the oft-repeated intangible idea that folks like me are wrong because we "assume" they are incapable, you have to equally accept the idea that very likely many of them are capable. And I believe that if the welfare population is as incapable as people like you attempt to portray, then there is no hope for our society no matter where we direct the money.

Pay the unions, more money for nurses, more money for stem-cell research that isn't even remotely being funded to the level elsewhere as it is in the US, and let's run states like Pennsylvania where nearly 40% of the budget is welfare...all the while saying the non-poor aren't paying their fair share of the taxes when they actually shoulder the heaviest tax burden of all and then have to put up with constant criticism because YOU think they should do more.

There is no rationale thought to be found from the welfare crowd anymore.

[Tweety]

Remember all of us have a right to our opinions, we should allow each other those opinions. Remember to stick to the topic and try not to get personal about those who feel differently.

Carry on.

[lizmatt]

No-one ever went from poor to non-poor because of a social program, but instead of what they did for themselves

I believe I am on my way from poor to non-poor mostly because of social programs. I recieved Medicaid, cash asssistance, food stamps and daycare assistance at some point over the past 3 years - which I now don't because of a federal scholarship (HRSA nursing scholarship)- also from tax-payer money, but somehow more socially acceptable. Yes, I agree that there are many people who abuse the welfare system, but it has been the only way possible for me to continue my education. I could have continued for the next 10 or so years making 13.00 dollars an hour and barely support my family - education was vital for the improvement of my childrens lives. In a year I will not need these programs and my kids will be better off then they ever were.

People make errors in judgement, but my childrens very existance should not be questioned. The problem would just perpetuate if poor kids are considered "mistakes" that don't deserve proper nutrition.

I don't intend to sound entitled to assistance, for it I am very grateful. But my point is that when used properly usually in conjunction with educational programs, assistance programs can break cycles of poverty.

And living on welfare is not really a life anyone would strive for. I recieved 400 dollars a month cash assistance and 300 dollars a month food stamps for my family of 3. Half of the cash assistance went to supplement the food stamps so that my family could continue to eat healthily leaving 200 dollars a month for everything else (clothing, textbooks etc). I am not complaing about the amount I recieved, I am just saying that anyone who chooses to live on welfare for a long time is going without a lot of things.

[Jolie]

Quotes in red from apoole77 above:
I believe I am on my way from poor to non-poor mostly because of social programs.

I respectfully disagree. You are on your way from poor to non-poor PARTLY because of social programs, and MOSTLY because of your own initiative and hard work.

Yes, I agree that there are many people who abuse the welfare system, but it has been the only way possible for me to continue my education. I could have continued for the next 10 or so years making 13.00 dollars an hour and barely support my family - education was vital for the improvement of my childrens lives. In a year I will not need these programs and my kids will be better off.

You are a perfect example of the INTENT of these programs...to provide TEMPORARY assistance to those working to better themselves and their families, and become independent. The objection many taxpayers have to social programs is NOT recipients like you, but those who remain on the programs indefinitely, despite being physically and mentally capable of working.

I don't intend to sound entitled to assistance, for it I am very grateful. But my point is that when used properly usually in conjunction with educational programs, assistance programs can break cycles of poverty.

You certainly don't sound entitled. You sound grateful.

And living on welfare is not really a life anyone would strive for. I recieved 400 dollars a month cash assistance and 300 dollars a month food stamps for my family of 3. Half of the cash assistance went to supplement the food stamps so that my family could continue to eat healthily leaving 200 dollars a month for everything else (clothing, textbooks etc). I am not complaing about the amount I recieved, I am just saying that anyone who chooses to live on welfare for a long time is going without a lot of things.[/quote]

I agree that living on welfare is not an attractive lifestyle, but there are those who choose to do so rather than put forth the effort you have to improve their lot in life. Those are the recipients who SHOULD be "going without a lot of things". Perhaps if they become uncomfortable enough with their lifestyle, they will be motivated to do something about it themselves rather than continue to rely on others to provide for them.

[DarrenWright]

Originally Posted by apoole77

I believe I am on my way from poor to non-poor mostly because of social programs. I recieved Medicaid, cash asssistance, food stamps and daycare assistance at some point over the past 3 years - which I now don't because of a federal scholarship (HRSA nursing scholarship)- also from tax-payer money, but somehow more socially acceptable. Yes, I agree that there are many people who abuse the welfare system, but it has been the only way possible for me to continue my education. I could have continued for the next 10 or so years making 13.00 dollars an hour and barely support my family - education was vital for the improvement of my childrens lives. In a year I will not need these programs and my kids will be better off then they ever were.

People make errors in judgement, but my childrens very existance should not be questioned. The problem would just perpetuate if poor kids are considered "mistakes" that don't deserve proper nutrition.

I don't intend to sound entitled to assistance, for it I am very grateful. But my point is that when used properly usually in conjunction with educational programs, assistance programs can break cycles of poverty.

And living on welfare is not really a life anyone would strive for. I recieved 400 dollars a month cash assistance and 300 dollars a month food stamps for my family of 3. Half of the cash assistance went to supplement the food stamps so that my family could continue to eat healthily leaving 200 dollars a month for everything else (clothing, textbooks etc). I am not complaing about the amount I recieved, I am just saying that anyone who chooses to live on welfare for a long time is going without a lot of things.

It was "A" way to continue your education, but not "the only way." This, however, is not a primary point that I feel a need to make, because in this case, you made it work. Most people don't.

This scenario is an example of how the welfare system is supposed to work; a bridge to self improvement...but that's not how it is typically engaged or presented by many of it's recipients and advocates. BTW, there were obviously some choices made that led to this scenario, and while I won't judge anyone for these choices, I also don't think that they should be ineligible to bear the consequences...which you obviously did with great grace.

The sad part is that even though you won't need these program in a year, the pro-welfare establishment won't champion you as an example of a success story; they would just as soon keep you and your children captured in the welfare cycle, placing the entire burden of responsibility for your children on me and everyone else instead of recognizing the different that YOU as the parent can, should, and did make in this process.

That's the part of the welfare mentality that is simply nuts.

BTW, the existence of children is most definitely a consideration; welfare advocates typically believe it would be fine to abort a baby than to raise it poor. And more accurately, it's not the existence of these children that is questioned, it's the decision to have them when people can't take care of their own.

I don't have children, but I would love to have a child (actually would like to have two). I, unfortunately, don't have the resources to raise a child. For that reason, I have chosen NOT to have one until I have those resources instead of tasking someone else to be financially responsible for my child without having any say in my decision.