[PMFB-RN]

It might be different in Wisconsin, but here in AZ, I can bill Medicare as well as secondary insurnace for my services if I take care of a person who needs nursing care. I have done this in the past. NEXT....

*** How many hospital and long term care nurses do that in AZ?

To you the BSN is a waste of time, which is fine, that is your opnion, but it will change that the BSN will be the entry degree into nursing.

*** I don't disagree that some day, in the distant future, a BSN will become the standard entry point for nursing. I don't even think that is an issue. That doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. My preference would be for either nursing to be a masters program after a science type undergrad degree or for a bachelors degree with more relevant and useful for the RN content be required.

To answer your question about professions who are paid hourly.. Here are a few..

Lawyers
Doctor's
PT
OT
Speech
Engineers
Computer personal
Pilots

Here are a few

*** Billing for hours is a far different thing than punching a time clock.

[tferdaise]

Does it matter how many have it, it can be done...

Billing for hours or punching a time clock same thing, just worded differently. Since a lawyer does not get paid a salary, they get paid on the HOURS they work....

Originally Posted by PMFB-RN

*** How many hospital and long term care nurses do that in AZ?

To answer your question about professions who are paid hourly.. Here are a few..

Lawyers
Doctor's
PT
OT
Speech
Engineers
Computer personal
Pilots

Here are a few

*** Billing for hours is a far different thing than punching a time clock.

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by tferdaise

Does it matter how many have it, it can be done...

Billing for hours or punching a time clock same thing, just worded differently. Since a lawyer does not get paid a salary, they get paid on the HOURS they work....

Lawyers bill in 10 minute intervals. It is known as "billable hours". They have special software and stationary that they do this on.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[PMFB-RN]

Does it matter how many have it, it can be done...

*** My question is can it be done where most RNs work? In hospitals and long term care.

Billing for hours or punching a time clock same thing, just worded differently.

*** No it isn't the same thing at all. Usually professionals do not punch a time clock, usually vocational jobs do punch time clocks. Punching a time clock is a very, very different than billing directly for hours. I suspect that if you required doctors and lawyers to punch time clocks you would get a lot of resistance.
Punching a time clock does not bring up an immage of a professional in the publics mind. Sure as heck not in mine.
Still have the issue of RN pay and working conditions not being high enough for those who have forked out for a college education, at least IMO.

[Miss Mab]

Originally Posted by PMFB-RN

Still have the issue of RN pay and working conditions not being high enough for those who have forked out for a college education, at least IMO.

Which is really the whole 'chicken or the egg' problem, right?

IMO, you raise the entry and the available pool drastically drops and finally, FINALLY, those pesky pay and workplace issues will be forced to be resolved because you're darn right no one with a brain will choose this path the way things are now. Someone's gonna have to pony up to garner a qualified workforce....

Scary and dramatic(even dangerous perhaps) in the short run--great and lasting strides in the long.

BTW, I don't get the whole I already have a bachelor's argument.(Full disclosure I am a second degree grad). If I have a Communications BA and want to then become an engineer, I still have to go back and complete the upper div. engineering requirements. They are two completely different disciplines. Why would I get a short-cut?
Oh yeah, that's right, but then they don't have a two year engineering degree option alternative....
Interesting..

[PMFB-RN]

Which is really the whole 'chicken or the egg' problem, right?

*** There is no chicken or egg problem. The egg came long, long before the chicken.

IMO, you raise the entry and the available pool drastically drops and finally, FINALLY, those pesky pay and workplace issues will be forced to be resolved because you're darn right no one with a brain will choose this path the way things are now. Someone's gonna have to pony up to garner a qualified workforce....

*** Or maybe just import nurses.

BTW, I don't get the whole I already have a bachelor's argument.(Full disclosure I am a second degree grad).

*** And I don't get the "more rounded person" argument often put forward.

If I have a Communications BA and want to then become an engineer, I still have to go back and complete the upper div. engineering requirements. They are two completely different disciplines. Why would I get a short-cut?

*** Except that the argument for getting a degree in engineering is not so that you may become "better rounded and educated". You will actually have to learn engineering. If a bachelors degree can do such a thing then you have already done it with your communications degree.

Oh yeah, that's right, but then they don't have a two year engineering degree option alternative....

*** No they don't but then nursing is not engineering. What we do have is a bunch of BSN programs with content that is of little or no value to nurses.

[ANPFNPGNP]

Originally Posted by NexLvlDad

If an individual can pass the NCLEX and perform adequately, who cares if the individual holds a BSN, ADN or a diploma. I don't think nursing is such the disenfranchised profession in healthcare because the perception is that a nurse brings 1 year of school preparation. To help the profession there has to be more pragmatic challenges to tackle that will actually result in improved conditions, treatment and respect of nurses throughout healthcare. What's interesting is how difficult it is to enter and endure law school to become a lawyer and yet any one without a law degree or any other educational preparation can sit for the bar exam and if passed can practice law.

Where did you get your information? In the US, a person has to graduate from an accredited law school in order to sit for the bar exam. That means one must obtain a Juris Doctorate in order to sit for the bar exam.

Let me ask you this, would you want a person with a 6th grade education teaching your children? Would it be "okay" with you if they just studied a bunch of facts and were able to pass some test to get certified or would you want that person to be educated?

I took the NCLEX and I'm here to tell you that the majority of high school graduates could study and pass that exam...no problemo! Maybe we should just let anyone without any educational preparation take the NCLEX and if they can pass it, then they can practice as a registered nurse! While you're at it, let's just go ahead and make the United States a third world country!

[jjjoy]

Any field CAN be taught and mastered without a bachelor's degree. One could argue that engineering shouldn't require a bachelor's degree either... or architecture, or high school teaching, or anything else that currently requires at least bachelor's. So that's not really an argument against BSN for entry. One might support BSN for entry even though it IS possible to provide adequate training without a BSN.

Ideally, BSN is everything that an ADN or diploma education is PLUS a bit extra to put the mininum requirements for the profession on par with the many other professions that have at least a bachelor's as a minimum for entry to practice. As it is, most ADN programs take 3 years to complete... so why not add just one more year and give the graduates full credit for a four year degree?

My main concern about a BSN for entry requirement is that instead of improving conditions at the bedside, even fewer qualifed nurses will choose that route, and some other solution will come into play, such as foreign nurses or the development of some other level of nurse or tech to take the bedside role.

But I do think the image of bedside nursing needs to change... and to do that, I think bedside nursing should have it's own unique training that HAS to be completed to qualify to apply for acute care nursing positions.

Either nursing education is based on acute care and thus all nurses should learn it OR it's a specialty and should be taught separate to those who want to work in that area. Most agree that acute care is one part of nursing, not the basic foundation, yet the majority of clinical nursing education IS about acute care. And yet, that same education often only barely skims the realities of acute care nursing.

Well, just rambling again!!!!

[jjjoy]

One more ramble...

As it currently is, I agree that BSN programs aren't necessarily any improvement on ADN programs. I'd be more in support of nurses being encouraged to get a bachelor's degree in any related subject (eg public health, health administration, human biology) and be rewarded through a step up in pay and increased opportunities. And wouldn't the diversity of knowledge from related fields be more useful than a generic BSN? For specific advanced nursing studies, one could pursue a masters in nursing.

[ANPFNPGNP]

Originally Posted by jjjoy

My main concern about a BSN for entry requirement is that instead of improving conditions at the bedside, even fewer qualifed nurses will choose that route, and some other solution will come into play, such as foreign nurses or the development of some other level of nurse or tech to take the bedside role.

Foreign nurse are already in play and they have a Bachelor's Degree (most have 5 years of full time education). I've worked with lots of nurses from the Phillipines and they are far better educated and prepared than any ADN I've ever work with...hands down!