[USFguy]

Originally Posted by rstewart

Anyone can go to school for 1 to 2 years and be taught to perform tasks, but the BSN goes further and your thinking skills go beyond task oriented behavior.

Many nurses feel that we are all equal when we, by definition, are not. There is a reason that the LPN program is 1 year long, the ADN program 2 years, and the BSN program 4 years.

The LPN is a concrete thinker and it progresses with the BSN learning to think more abstractly. The Master's and Doctorate programs go even further with their philosopical stance. All of this is VERY useful when you're in the clinical setting dealing with patient's and their families and many life or death situations.




Now then I would encourage all nurses to read this post, in fact review all the previous posts on this thread. Can there be any doubt from which level of nursing eminates the divisivness which plagues the nursing profession?

There is no evidence that obtaining a BSN improves abstract thought processes. I would appreciate the opportunity to examine the experimental design of any study which comes to that conclusion. In the absence of such evidence, I regretfully must conclude that you are mindlessly regurgitating the unsupported ramblings of nursing academia.

The fact of the matter is the very existence of Associate degree prepared nurses is a testament to the failures of BSN education, specifically 1) The dismal failure to attract and educate sufficient numbers of competent bedside nurses despite repeated assurances they can do otherwise and 2) The inability to measurably distinguish themselves from alternatively prepared nurses. I should add at this time that studies such as Akins which attempt to demonstate such differences are of such noticeably poor design, that even a novice researcher can spot their limitations. However, for those individuals who are incapable of making such analysis independently, a visit to the National Organization for Associate Degree Nursing website might be helpful.

The idea that AD prepared Registered Nurses (or any nurse for that matter)perform only at the task level is at once offensive and unsupported by the literature. The idiocy of such a proposition is evident to all but those with an agenda to support.

I really find it hard to believe nurses are fighting tooth and nail to keep their education at the Associate Degree level!! It is mind boggeling!! It's like your'e all proud to be on the bottom rung of health care, because that is truly where you/we will be and remain if your/our stubborn ignorance towards higher education continues, as it has for the past 30 some years.

This is about the future of nursing. Don't short change yourselves! As I said earlier, the rest of the world understands that nurses need four years of education. Why doesn't America get it yet?!

Education = Power.....PERIOD

You want higher pay, more prestige and respect from your colleagues and the public, you want more men in nursing......the answer is simple, more education!!!

Mandatory BSN for all nurses NOW!!!

[medpsychRN]

The clinical time is the same whether you are an ADN or a BSN. ADN's can and do provide the same patient care. I believe if the BSN program allowed people to specialize and had additional clinical time it would be more attractive.

Unfortunately, at least where I work, there is no advantage to having a BSN. You cannot hold a management position so you are going to work the floor along with the ADN and perhaps make a dollar an hour more. You just don't get the financial return on an advanced nursing degree. If you're thinking get a master's, you may then be eligible for management but those jobs (where I work) are few and far between. Many of the nurses on my unit have their master's.

Some degree nurses have a holier than thou attitude (which I don't get from the MD's) and people find this abrasive.

Knowledge equals power and frankly, those initials after your name regardless of what they are doesn't always mean you know what you're doing.

[icyounurse]

i worked my butt off for three years to get my adn and am now going back for by bsn. but only because i want to go to grad school, not because i think there is that much of a differance between an adn vs bsn. in my case the only classes i was missing were macroeconomics, business statistics, literature, 2 histories and a nursing management course. other than the nursing management, the nursing related curriculum was the same.we took the same science courses. the clinicals were the same. and the starting pay was 25 cents more for a bsn, that is it. and guess what?same boards, same liscence. it was amazing how many people i work with who have their bsn think that their education was so superior. i disagree.
i would say that i am just as qualified as anyone with their bsn, and all this nonsense about "better educated nurses"
pure snobbery.
sincerily,
proud to be adn

[miya]

any suggestions as to where i can find some facts, do some of my own research? I'm about to start my pre-reqs for my ADN and have some serious concerns (I'm in NY).

[Claver]

The most important element of nursing is passing your state boards - Diploma, ADN, BSN all take the same boards - this indicate that we all have the same basic educational requirements - I am a diploma trained nurse - trained in the days when this was the minimum requirements for practice - with my years of clinical experience I would say that I need to be paid more than any BSN - because on the job we are doing the same thing and I have years of clinical experience, supervisory, independent, consultant, educator etc. - but that is not the point I want to make - many diploma and ADN nurses have furthered their education in health related fields - and this mean that many of them have the skills and ability to be managers - I have a bachelors and a masters degree in health adminstration and am currently enrolled in a Phd program.

We cannot get rid of the "old" without considering where we have come from - We need to stop this debate and look to see how we can empower ourselves - and a million degrees are not going to do this - as posted earlier we must be seen as 'BILLABLE HOURS" and so we have to work on getting hospitals etc. to acknowledge this - Many people who rise to top positions do not necessarily have all of these degrees - the former police commissioner of New York City, the National Security Director in New Jersey under the former administration - and we can go on and on. Let us think seriously about this degree business - not that it is not needed - but BSN'S just think of this - in the next 25 years someone will be saying that you need A MSN to enter practice - DIPLOMA AND ADN'S WILL BE EXTINCT - BSN'S WILL BE GRANDFATHERED IN - THEN IN THE NEXT 25 YEARS - A PHD WILL BE THE MINIMUM TO ENTER PRACTICE - BSN'S WILL BE EXTINCT AND MSN'S WILL BE GRANFATHERED IN and on and on

WE NEED TO UNITE - accept our history and diversity and MOVE ON
:hatparty: :hatparty: :hatparty:

Originally Posted by DeniseRNBSN

I totally agree with your post.
Nursing is not taking seriously because there are so many ways to become a nurse. It only takes 1 year to say that you are a nurse.

Name one other job where you can go to a vocation/technical school for one year and become a PROFESSIONAL and be treated with the utmost dignity and respect?

I can't name a one. That's why nurses don't get the respect or the money that we deserve. That's why there is no difference in pay between a diploma grad and a BSN.

Yes, there is a nursing shortage and there will probably always be one but does that mean we cut the education level to achieve the goal of more nurses?
There is no way that medical schools will cut their education requirement because of a physician shortage. Does it take one year to become a lawyer, teacher, chemist, engineer? (I could go on).

Nurses should not sell ourselves short by only requiring one year to become a nurse. I think New York is doing the right thing by requiring their nurses to have a BSN.

When ALL nurses are on the same playing field educationally we can then command more autonomy, respect, and monetary incentives.


Denise RN, BSN, CCRN

[SusanJean]

Originally Posted by USFguy

I really find it hard to believe nurses are fighting tooth and nail to keep their education at the Associate Degree level!! It is mind boggeling!! It's like your'e all proud to be on the bottom rung of health care, because that is truly where you/we will be and remain if your/our stubborn ignorance towards higher education continues, as it has for the past 30 some years.

Education = Power.....PERIOD

You want higher pay, more prestige and respect from your colleagues and the public, you want more men in nursing......the answer is simple, more education!!!

Mandatory BSN for all nurses NOW!!!

The way you word it... I find it hard to disagree . Well said.

[SmilingBluEyes]

If a BSN is so "empowering", why are so many of these nurses emigrating faster than you can blink to other countries? Why is it, with the professional degree, they are not treated better? Does anyone here REALLY believe all-BSN entry will solve OUR issues here? I just don't. I think it's much more complicated than that alone. It's a great START,but is NOT the cure for what ails nursing in the USA.

[MrsWampthang]

If i were seeking any service (ie. nursing, medical,taxes, etc) I would want the most educated professional providing that service to help me. So, yes having a BSN does command more respect than an ADN...

Anyone that completed their A.A.S then B.S.N feels more empowered.

An increased level of education enables some RNs to function more confidently. Being confident and knowledgeable about what you are doing decreases your chances of getiing disrespected.I am not saying that the "BSN on a nametag " will prevent you from getting disrespected. Anyone including the CEO of the hospital can be disrespected by another professional, patient, or family member.[/quote]

Sorry, but I beg to differ. Who would you rather have taking care of you or one of your family members? A freshly graduated BSN with skills only having been practiced in clinicals? Or an ASN or Diploma nurse who has been a nurse for years and is extremely skillfull as well as knowledgeable? And as for a BSN feeling more confident and knowledgeable; again a seasoned ASN or diploma nurse could run circles around a freshly graduated BSN. I don't think a BSN behind your name will make you more confident than an ASN, Diploma nurse or even an LPN with years of experience. Confidence comes from experience not classroom study. In nursing, skills are just as important as knowledge so don't count out that ASN or Diploma nurse as someone you wouldn't want taking care of you or a family member. Just my two cents.

Pam

[Angie O'Plasty, RN]

Originally Posted by Traumamama59

ASN or diploma nurse could run circles around a freshly graduated BSN. I don't think a BSN behind your name will make you more confident than an ASN, Diploma nurse or even an LPN with years of experience. Confidence comes from experience not classroom study.

I agree.

Personally, I was raised to believe the more education, the better. But there's that clinical aspect to nursing that you simply can't get in a classroom.

I fully believe that the ADN programs of today compare very well to the BSN programs of years ago.

I have also come to believe that secondary education has become quite a racket in and of itself. But I won't go there. Suffice to say that I've never heard any educator talk about the cost-effectiveness of education to occupational goal. In other words, how much money will you make with your BSN over the ADN throughout your lifetime? How much "bang for your buck?"

No, the answer will always be to get more education. No matter what the field, no matter what the discrepancy is between education cost and salary limits, the educator will always claim that more is better.

It might make the college money, but you'll be out in the cold trying to pay those student loans on a staff nursing salary.

This is why I believe the ADN provides the best entry point. I also think few of you will agree with me because quite a lot of you are intimidated or overly impressed by all the letters behind nurses' names. I am too old for that elitist garbage. As a culture, we are taught to revere those among us who are formally educated, but is that reverence really warranted?

I don't think so. You might take a few moments and really examine this question, really look at your attitudes about education.

How much formal education is "enough"? I think it's "enough" when the interest in a chosen field or profession sparks an interest to learn more about a subject. I don't have to enroll in formal, costly college classes to be well-rounded. I'm always reading about nursing--new studies, new treatments, or reviewing patho. I have literally hundreds of books on various topics in nursing and probably have the equivalent of a BSN.

Nurses have to keep their education up-to-date as few other professions do, and many of us actively seek knowledge in an informal way that is every bit as relevant and every bit as respect-garnering experientially, as the formally educated BSN.

At the root of the problem of respect is that nursing is considered a soft science compared to say, geology. No amount of education is going to change the basic perspective of nursing among the sciences.

I used to love debates like this, but I find that I don't have the energy to keep up any more, so this will probably be my last post on this topic. I just wanted to throw a couple more things out there for your thoughtful consideration.

[RN34TX]

[quote=DeniseRNBSN
Anyone can go to school for 1 to 2 years and be taught to perform tasks, but the BSN goes further and your thinking skills go beyond task oriented behavior.

Denise RN, BSN, CCRN[/QUOTE]
I have 2 colleagues who are ADN's about to graduate with their BSN's. 3 others on my unit have recently obtained their BSN's after being ADN's for a period of time. They all say the same thing. That I'd be foolish not to do the same thing because if you can get through an ADN program, the BSN completion will seem like a breeze.
Your statement about anyone being able to do an LPN or ADN program and be trained to "perform tasks" would be like my saying that anyone can take some extra general ed courses i.e. statistics, chemistry, etc. along with some nursing theory and call themselves a BSN.
And to those who posted about being able to quote Shakespear or give a powerpoint presentation (which are apparantly much needed skills for a nurse that us non-BSN's do not have) if you tried to impress me with that stuff as your patient I would look at you and say:
"And this is supposed to impress upon me that you will take better care of me than your LPN and ADN Colleagues?" Big deal.
I was taught a lot more than to "perform tasks" in my LPN and ADN programs.
I'm still trying to teach these same "tasks" to the newer BSN's on my floor (who were not previously nurses in any capacity) who apparantly still are not catching on despite their BSN education.
I'm sorry, but when I'm a patient, I need a nurse who knows what they are doing, not a nurse who can quote and discuss famous literature and give powerpoint presentations with their "well rounded" education.