[pantheon]

Originally Posted by Elvish

I went to a traditional 4-yr college (UNC-Chapel Hill) straight out of highschool. I know that's not an option for everybody and I'm not knocking those who don't go. But that was the option I had and I took it.

I did learn a lot of theory and some of it was good, some not so much. The research class we had was BORING. Ditto the nursing hx class (or whatever it was called, can't remember). The leadership/mgmt class was AWESOME. Most of our individual classes had the theory mixed in w/ clinicals & lecture, so it's not like we had a separate class on it.

How did it help me as a nurse? Well, I still refer back to the biochemistry (they let us choose chem or biochem) classes I took to help me explain diseases to patients, esp things like sickle cell anemia & diabetes. But it helps me in a lot.

As a person? The four years I spent in college, living on-campus all four years, were some of the absolute best years of my life. I loved everything about living in a dorm except for the 0300 fire alarm pulls by drunk athletes. I loved being exposed to different cultures and groups of people; I met friends from all over the world there and that background alone helps me tremendously now in my dealings with patients (we have pts from lots of different places). The general classes I took in the first 2 years gave me lots of knowledge I wouldn't have otherwise had.

Maybe I'm waxing sentimental but I am really grateful for what I had the opportunity to get. I'm sure many, if not all, of the things I learned as a person are certainly not unique to a BS in Nursing - I'm just saying that they helped me along the way as I was getting my degree.

I hope this makes sense.

Hello and yes it does make sense!
Thanks for the info. I have to say Anatomy & Physioloigy I & II helped me understand diseases better but CHEM I & II and Mico did not. I know it's different everywhere. These were taken at Montclair State University which was affiliated with my NSG school.

Also I lived in the dorm through out Nursing School even when I wasn't taking nursing courses but instead taking BSN courses. Those are and always will be some of the best years of my life!

Even though my Diploma Hospital based school over 100years old in it's nursing program & the hospital itself, it had a 3 floor dormitory that was very large. Kitchen, Laundry room, Lounges, nothing different from any University except it was attached to the school. You could literally role out of bed and take the stairs or elevator right to your class.

The 3rd floor was for smokers, at the time I was one. But I was a social smoker and that did not last long. But I thought it was cool they had that option. Our house mothers loved us and let us party a lot. Sometimes a couple of them even joined us. Yes, there was always plenty of booze for everyone.

I also like my brother and sister could of chosen to go to a 4 year school but I chose my school because a lot of people recommended it. My sister chose a 4 year (nursing) BSN program at Messiah College but hated it and switched to Human Resources as a major!

I also had people from all over the world come to my school. Some from the Carribean! I thought that was amazing that they knew our school even existed but apparently a lot of people did.

I have to say our schools don't sound that much different. The only difference that I have read is yes, I took nursing research (boring) but it was part of the BSN option.

I don't know maybe I was just lucky to have found my particular Diploma program because I know they all differ just like us as people!

Peace out, Pantheon

[jjjoy]

LindaRN - I always appreciate your input on this topic and you do have many valid points. I don't think the issue is that clear cut though.

Originally Posted by lindarn

Pharmacy, Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy were all once Bachelors Programs. They are now Doctorate for PT and Pharmacy, (after going to a Masters degree first), and Masters for Occupational Therapy. Explain how come we don't hear them whining about being asked to obtain a higher level of education?

I'll bet there were aspiring students who bemoaned that they'd have to go to school longer to end up at the same place that previous students could get to with less schooling.

They made a seamless transition to higher education levels for entry into practice. They are all grateful that their education levels were increased. Why? Because it cuts the numbers of applicants to the schools, decreases their numbers, which by the law of supply and demand increases their worth in the workplace. These are their words, not mine.

I'd be curious to see how the increase in educational level pans out in the long run, especially for PTs and OTs which used to be just bachelor's level for entry to practice. I imagine that as doctoral level PTs demand higher salaries, that more and more hands on and basic level work will be delegated to lower level staff such that the job role of the doctorally prepared PT changes substantially from the job role of the previously bachelor's prepared PT. That trained PT assistants will end up doing what used to be the work of PTs. And that these assistants, with their experience and expertise, may start to clamour for more opportunities and the cycle will continue.

For OTs, which has never demanded as high of a salary as PT in general, I imagine it being difficult to get and keep students & graduates in the field because after all that investment in education, the financial payoff and professional opportunities may be disappointingly limited. Look at social workers. Professional social work requires a master's degree but doesn't tend to pay well in addition to often having frustrating work environments. Much social work is done by non-degreed workers because even the relatively low pay that MSWs demand is more than they have budgets for.

Another difference between nursing and professions like PT & pharmacy is that nurses tend to be 'jack of all trades and master of none' - no RTs available? Have the nurse do it. No PT available? Have the nurse do it. Yet the nurse rarely gets the final say in patient care because they have no clear area of their own. I don't know if there's a way around this inherent dilemma. In attempting to create a 'unique' nursing expertise with nursing diagnoses and nursing care plans (as opposed to a general patient care plan), the nurse's important role in working with physicians and the patient's medical diagnoses becomes diminished.

I also think nursing's emphasis on caring and patient advocacy and basic care (ADLs, hygiene, etc) is a hindrance to nursing's bargaining power in organizations. Basic care can (and is) done primarily by aides in many facilities, and if you're going to cut something from the budget, "caring" and "advocacy" will go long before "medication administration" "patient monitoring" "IV starting" "physician calling" "record documenting" etc. My thoughts aren't well developed on this, just writing as I'm thinking.

PT and OT make ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES DO!!

When I looked at the US Dept of Labor site, I didn't see that big of a difference compared with RNs. On average, maybe $10,000 more per year for PTs. There may be more opportunity for PTs to earn more by opening their own office, but to really make money, they will have to hire assistants and aides and have them do most of the therapy.

Do you hear PT, OT, pharmacists, say, that they learned nothing of worth in their graduate programs? That all of the extra classes were just "fluff"? Do you hear them say that it was not worth it to earn a higher level of education?

I think part of that is the fault of the BSN programs themselves. The content & curriculum COULD be altered to be more clearly relevant to practicing nurses. Other professions don't complain as much because they don't have as much "fluff" content.

[chestrockwell]

Originally Posted by lindarn

Pharmacy, Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy were all once Bachelors Programs. They are now Doctorate for PT and Pharmacy, (after going to a Masters degree first), and Masters for Occupational Therapy. Explain how come we don't hear them whining about being asked to obtain a higher level of education? They made a seamless transition to higher education levels for entry into practice. They are all grateful that their education levels were increased. Why? Because it cuts the numbers of applicants to the schools, decreases their numbers, which by the law of supply and demand increases their worth in the workplace. These are their words, not mine.

Why on earth can't nursing do the same thing? Why is it that nursing cannot accept a higher standard? PT and OT make ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSES DO!! Does anyone connect the dots? They DEMANDED more money as they increased their education levels. Nurses sit around and wait for hospitals to just give us higher pay for education. And we sit and accept our co-workers fight to pay BSNs the same as ADN and Diploma grads are paid. There is no incentive for a BSN to stay at the bedside, is there? I shake my head in disbelief when I hear the ADNs state that the BSN grads only want to work in management. Has anyone made it worth their while to stay at the bedside? Do you hear PT, OT, pharmacists, say, that they learned nothing of worth in their graduate programs? That all of the extra classes were just "fluff"? Do you hear them say that it was not worth it to earn a higher level of education?

The answers to these questions is a resounding "NO". Perhaps if we made the effort to emulate these professsionals, we would learn what they found worthwhile in their programs, and how they managed to incorporate the knowledge into their everyday practice. Has anyone though that putting in requests to the schools, about what you would like to learn, and what classes/knowledge you think was useful?

Nurses, in turn, have no workplace control, no control over how patient care is delivered, we have no respect from anyone, and we are easily replaced by HS dropouts, because their is so litttle educationally to differentiate RNs from LPN/LVNs, and nurses aides/unlicensed assistive personnel. We all look like HS dropouts compared to the other Health Care professionals.

Put some effort into higher education before you condemn it as useless. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

Do you think that OT's and PT's and pharmacists have a lot of work place control? You make it seem like they get all the respect in the world and that nurses get none. I don't know anyone that says " wow, look at that OT, I really respect and envy that position". They do their job and you should do yours and stop comparing yourself to other careers. If I follow your train of thought, why not just make a masters the entry level degree to be a RN? Why settle for anything less? And to call yourself a step above a high school drop out displays your regard for yourself, not the view hundreds of thousands of men and women who work hard at nursing have about themselves.

[hpcat]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

My BSN program did have a specific class on geriatrics and a specific class on community and culture, where we addressed immigration and cultural nursing.

My BSN program also had significantly more clinical hours than the ADN programs in my area.

I don't understand all of this negatively towards BSN programs. From the tone here, why don't we just eliminate BSNs all together and force all of the BSN nurses to give up their Bachelor's degrees and go back and get their associates? Perhaps then, all these poorly prepared BSN nurses would get some respect for their education. sheesh.

You're lucky, because the schools by me DON'T offer those courses. Also, clinical hours are hard to come by here. The schools fight for slots, and often we have clinical groups that get booted from one hospital to another because they lost the fight for those slots. So some schools by me have RN to BSN programs with clinicals, some don't. But they're both BSNs...

Again, I'm in favor of more education, but remember, not all schools offer practical knowledge, they go for the theoretical stuff which most nurses aren't going to use in everyday practice. It looks more like filler for $ than something to actually enhance your practice.

And my question is, why can't someone like me who already has a BA find a part time program to go straight to BSN without going thru an accelerated program? I can't take a year off for that, I have a mortgage to pay! So I'm getting an ADN part time at night and according to many, my BA in social and behavioral sciences doesn't count for squat, I STILL have to get a BSN, or work for a while, put together a nursing portfolio, and pray I can go straight into an MSN program - fat chance at the school I want to go to. Talk about not getting respect for your education!

[chestrockwell]

Originally Posted by hpcat

You're lucky, because the schools by me DON'T offer those courses. Also, clinical hours are hard to come by here. The schools fight for slots, and often we have clinical groups that get booted from one hospital to another because they lost the fight for those slots. So some schools by me have RN to BSN programs with clinicals, some don't. But they're both BSNs...

Again, I'm in favor of more education, but remember, not all schools offer practical knowledge, they go for the theoretical stuff which most nurses aren't going to use in everyday practice. It looks more like filler for $ than something to actually enhance your practice.

And my question is, why can't someone like me who already has a BA find a part time program to go straight to BSN without going thru an accelerated program? I can't take a year off for that, I have a mortgage to pay! So I'm getting an ADN part time at night and according to many, my BA in social and behavioral sciences doesn't count for squat, I STILL have to get a BSN, or work for a while, put together a nursing portfolio, and pray I can go straight into an MSN program - fat chance at the school I want to go to. Talk about not getting respect for your education!

That a problem for requiring a BSN. I too have a BA and am going for an ADN because I did not want an accelerated BSN program. Now why should my previous degree not be of value? Because I didn't take a history of nursing class that will never help me in the real world? The same is to be said of previous lawyers, engineers, and MBA's and their accompanying advanced degree. Those pushing for a BSN need to take a look at all of the different educational accomplishments people have before blindly requiring the BSN degree specifically or risk losing a lot of brilliant people to the profession.

[CraigB-RN]

YUp, my BA and Med aparently aren't worth the paper they are printed on. But to keep it in perspective. I understand the teaching thing, Not being able to teach without the MSN, even though I don't agree with it. It's the transistion from one level to the other than annoys me. I learned NOTHING new in the adn to BSN program I did, just so I could get an MSN and teach. One of my other basic frustrations, having gone the BA and thenMEd route, I have a basic understanding of educatinoal models and the one we use in nursing is basicly flawed. Although it works, it is wastfull of time and resources, and really doesn't do a lot of the things it claims, like produce "well rounded" nurses. But then again, neither do most educational tracts. My IT friends gripe about taking art appreaciation and lit, they did it, but none of them can tell a Rembrant from a Picaso, and I still to this day, many years later haven't figured out what writing a "Self Actualization Journal" did to help me as a BSN, "when I had already been a DON as a ADN with a grad degree.

I just haven't figured out how to affect a change. Inertia ia hard thing to overcome. As to loosing brilliant people, well I think that argument can be said for no matter what change we make, someone will always fall by the wayside. Our tast is to convince people that this is a valid, fulfilling proffesion and that nursing is something they want to do, no matter what the educational path they have to take. Now I"m off to read about how Jane Watson made it possible for me to know ehen to titrate the Dopamine drip my septic patient is on. Oops shame on me, just a little sarcasm there.

Boy I am rambling today. As to nursing care plans and dx. Wehn I was learning them, they at least helpted me learn a thoght process. Now my nurse interns tell me they didn't learn anything, the comptuer printed the care plan for them. Hmmm. So much for that. As to nursing diagnosis. I seemt o recal someone trying to convince me that this was something that was going to improve my ability to make $$ by allow us to bill for our services because we were "diagnosing" and this wa 20 years ago and I'm stil not "Billing" for services.

Maybe we can ger find a school, that is willing to work with a board of nursing to produce something new, something that is real and solid. I can dream can't I.

[Susan9608]

There is nothing wrong with a BSN.

Really? Then why all of this?

I just wanted to say that a BS is BS

I have a lot of friends that are RN-BSN grads. Guess what? They are clueless.

as a manager, why would i pay more for a nurse with classes in underwater basket weaving (yes, that's got as much to do with bedside nursing as the bsn education)?

Obviously there's *some* value to a BSN program or a) BSNs wouldn't get paid even a dime more (and I get paid $1.50/hour more than ADN nurses - and that goes up per year that I'm employed there), b) BSNs wouldn't be preferred for management positions, and c) a BSN wouldn't even be being considered for the entry point into professional nursing, and d) so many nurses wouldn't go back to school to get their BSN.

adns will keep being aorund if anything because they demand less than many bsns.

Did you ever wonder why that is?

I have no doubt that there are many find ADN nurses. I have no doubt about that. But I fail to understand why so many nurses are fighting advancing the profession and professional education. Why hold nursing and nurses back?

Listen, I have many friends that went to BSN schools and have great nursing careers but it took them a little longer to catch up to other programs that had more clinical experiences.

I have yet to see an ADN program that has as much clinical time offered as a BSN program. I went to 2 different BSN programs, and have worked with many BSN programs and ADN programs as a nurse. I find that the BSN students spend far more time on the floor than the ADN students - in my area, at least - and that the BSN students do far more during their clinical time. The ADN students generally simply observe.

So your sweeping generalization about ADN programs providing superior clinical experience just proves the adage that all generalizations are false.

And this statement:

My current ADN program could definitely use a pharmacology course (only offered with BSN in schools by me) and a lot more lab skills teaching

proves the benefit of a BSN program. Pharmacology is a basic staple of nursing.

And the mere fact that I'm typing this post proves yet again to me the benefit of standardizing nursing education. If we had a unified educational entry, we wouldn't be able to back-bite each other and fight amongst ourselves over whose program was more worthwhile, would we?

[hpcat]

Originally Posted by Susan9608

Really? Then why all of this?






Obviously there's *some* value to a BSN program or a) BSNs wouldn't get paid even a dime more (and I get paid $1.50/hour more than ADN nurses - and that goes up per year that I'm employed there), b) BSNs wouldn't be preferred for management positions, and c) a BSN wouldn't even be being considered for the entry point into professional nursing, and d) so many nurses wouldn't go back to school to get their BSN.



Did you ever wonder why that is?

I have no doubt that there are many find ADN nurses. I have no doubt about that. But I fail to understand why so many nurses are fighting advancing the profession and professional education. Why hold nursing and nurses back?



I have yet to see an ADN program that has as much clinical time offered as a BSN program. I went to 2 different BSN programs, and have worked with many BSN programs and ADN programs as a nurse. I find that the BSN students spend far more time on the floor than the ADN students - in my area, at least - and that the BSN students do far more during their clinical time. The ADN students generally simply observe.

So your sweeping generalization about ADN programs providing superior clinical experience just proves the adage that all generalizations are false.

And this statement:



proves the benefit of a BSN program. Pharmacology is a basic staple of nursing.

And the mere fact that I'm typing this post proves yet again to me the benefit of standardizing nursing education. If we had a unified educational entry, we wouldn't be able to back-bite each other and fight amongst ourselves over whose program was more worthwhile, would we?

If you'd actually read my post, you would see that I am for more education, my problem is that there is no standardization (ex. clinicals vs. no clinicals in an RN-to-BSN program), so there is no way to ensure that the BSN education you get is going to add to your practice. I'd rather take one pharmacology course for a few hundred dollars to enhance my ADN than spend thousands for two more years of theory courses that don't offer additional lab or clinical skills. Otherwise it's just getting a bunch of letters after my name with nothing to support it.

And since my BA is in social and behavioral sciences (heavily psychology and sociology), does it not stand to reason that I have an edge over a BSN when it comes to a nursing specialty like psychiatric nursing or case management?

I think many RNs do go back because they want more education and more opportunities. Often there are positions that ask for BSN or MSN. But I know plenty of nurses who were hired for management positions because of their experience, not their education.

Higher levels degrees are NOT always appreciated by hospitals, you're one of the few. My SIL will only get 50 cents more an hour for a BSN at her hospital (part of a huge business conglomerate, as so many hospitals are nowadays). She's going for certification in her specialty instead - she'll get the same pay raise.

Here's an incentive - how about higher pay levels - not a lousy $1.50 an hour (which works out to $3120 a year on a 40 hr week before taxes) - how about $10,000 a year or more pay difference? In the business world, you get major raises for major degrees. I know people who've even DOUBLED their salaries for getting a Bachelor's or Master's.

We need to PROVE to hospitals et al that the higher education is worth more, because clearly they haven't gotten the message. It has to start with excellent STANDARDIZED education that gives us VALUABLE, APPLICABLE skills and knowledge.

[traumahawk99]

the problem with all of this is that an adn education is sufficient to do the job of bedside nursing. any attempt to attach more requirements creates an artificial construct. whose construct do we accept?

requiring a bedside nurse to take addtional classes that are unrelated to the job simply because some have a psychological need for control over the profession just doesn't hold water, and is doomed to crumble under the economic reality of actually delivering bedside nursing in the real world. otherwise, the bsn would have been a requirement long ago.

why not make bedside nursing the exclusive province of msn educated nurses? it makes just as much sense as requiring a bsn. after all, if an msn was required, don't we all think nursing would be more respected? wouldn't this allow for an even greater level of standardization?

to argue that we need bsn as entry level to this profession because a 4 year degree is required in business or marketing or engineering is utter tomfoolery. what does this actually have to do with nursing? bartending is a profession, does this mean we should require a 4 year degree to tend bar?

[chestrockwell]

Originally Posted by traumahawk99

the problem with all of this is that an adn education is sufficient to do the job of bedside nursing. any attempt to attach more requirements creates an artificial construct. whose construct do we accept?

requiring a bedside nurse to take addtional classes that are unrelated to the job simply because some have a psychological need for control over the profession just doesn't hold water, and is doomed to crumble under the economic reality of actually delivering bedside nursing in the real world. otherwise, the bsn would have been a requirement long ago.

why not make bedside nursing the exclusive province of msn educated nurses? it makes just as much sense as requiring a bsn. after all, if an msn was required, don't we all think nursing would be more respected? wouldn't this allow for an even greater level of standardization?

to argue that we need bsn as entry level to this profession because a 4 year degree is required in business or marketing or engineering is utter tomfoolery. what does this actually have to do with nursing? bartending is a profession, does this mean we should require a 4 year degree to tend bar?

great post.