[rn/writer]

Originally Posted by Marsha Miller

It is so sad to hear many of the comments about "if I had to go back to school, it would not in nursing" GET OUT! Why are you still in it if you don't want to see it grow?

Telling people to leave the profession is generally not well received.

People stay in nursing because they find a way to make it work for them. Or they don't have the luxury of retraining if parts of the job are giving them grief. Maybe new management came in and turned a good facility into a torture chamber. Maybe years of physical strain have taken their toll and they can't find a position that will not make things worse. Who knows why someone would feel regret. And who knows if that regret is a long-term emotion or just a black cloud on a particularly bad day.

I guess I don't get the connection between being personally discouraged and not wanting to see the profession grow. I'll bet some of the nurses who feel demoralized would LOVE to see growth in nursing if it meant sane workloads and decent pay and proper respect for all levels of nursing.

. . .

I was a LPN, Diploma RN, BSN, and now in graduate school. I see the need for theory and research. That is what keeps us from moving backward and stagnating.

That's what keeps us as a profession from moving backward and stagnating, but many nurses do not want to go back to school for theory and research simply to continue in the jobs they now hold. Some nurses have the time, the finances, and the desire to pursue these areas and that's great. Leave the rest alone.

I think the Diploma and ADN's should be grandfathered in, but I would love to have the minimal education requirement for a nurse to be the BSN. It will help us to be recognized as a profession and as professionals.

Treating each other with more respect would help us in this area too. I have thought for a long time that other disciplines feel free to go after us when they see how vicious we are among our own ranks.

It is funny that we hold a higher standard for just about all other professions except nursing. Would you like your brain surgeon to take a fast-track and become a doctor to practice on you or your loved ones?

Specious argument. ADNs don't get "fast-tracked" in the sense of leaving out anything essential to bedside nursing.

Let's raise the standard. I can't imagine doing anything other nursing. . . I am and will always be a nurse. I don't think getting a BSN will make anyone a better nurse, but it opens avenues in your mind to see our profession in a different light. I am one of the fortunate ones that found out my purpose in life at an early age. I have been in the healthcare profession for 18 years and I love it more each day, because this is who and what I am.

Not everyone has the benefit of your early enlightenment. Many ADN nurses cannot start their education until they are well into adulthood. Should we just tell them, sorry, we really need nurses, but we'll pass if you can't do the entire BSN right from the start. I'll wager there are plenty of ADNs who did go on for their BSN who might not have gone into nursing at all if they'd had to do it in one fell swoop.

If a ten-year time limit were to be imposed, how many ADNS or diploma grads would go for the BSN? I'd be one who wouldn't, not because I don't value education, but because it would probably take at least half of that time to get the darn thing and I still would want to keep my present job or something similar for the ten or so years I'd still be working. If forced to pursue a degree that would not benefit me in my job focus, then much as I like what I do, I'd have to look at other alternatives.

This isn't just a theoretical discussion about "the profession." It's a lively debate that should never forget that nurses aren't just pawns on an ivory tower chess board, but real people who have been instrumental in making the health care system work for decades. Yeah, there's always room for improvement, but it needs to be accomplished in a way that is humane and makes sense for the largest number of people involved.

[ccn]

I think it is a good idea................BSN should be a requirement

[Marsha Miller]

Thank you for your comments. I love to spark a good debate. I don't really think anything will come of a mandate for the BSN to be the entry level for RN's, mainly because of the mindset of "what's the use", the nursing shortage, or whatever. I can think of a hundred excusses not to go back to school, but I can also think of a million reasons why you need to go back. I think if people want to further their education. . . go for it, it not, don't go for it. To each it's own. You are safe. . . probably in this life time, this mandate will never come to pass.

[SMARTY_RN]

I am an RN with my Associates Degree, and I have been seriously thinking about going for my Bachelors RN. I can honestly say it has nothing to do with me being able to give my patients better care if I get my BSN, it would be to benefit me in the future for managing positions. No one who has posted on here has mentioned the most important people that would be affected here ( The Patients ) !!!!!!!! You know, the people who are the reason we nurses have jobs ! I think a bachelors degree would be awesome, but just not mandatory. Maybe if they offered more pay for it you would have more students going straight for the BSN instead of the ADRN. And I don't mean 50 cents to 1.00 dollar more either. Lets try maybe $10-15 dollars more an hour for having a BSN .....I would be 1st in line. .....But seriously.....priority is to the patients and they are more concerned about having someone who can safely take care of them ( passing boards is suppose to qualify a nurse for that ). For those who have BSN's or ADRN's congrats for all the hard work you have done to get where you are! Oh and one more thing......there was definately nothing fast-track about the ADRN program I graduated from, my program required a minimum grade of 78 for passing, and some BSN schools I know of has a 70-72 for passing.........God Bless


SMARTY_RN

[RN34TX]

Originally Posted by mtdnk

It does amaze me that the concept of a BSN is so misunderstood. Specializing at a baccalaureate level? Helps me to write papers? Doesn't have a benefit at my job? Ouch.

Then perhaps you can enlighten me.
I'm in a BSN program now and close to my wits end.

I have no idea why I'm here in the program, no idea what I'm going to do with a BSN that's any different than my ADN, and let me tell ya, it's been a long hard road.

I've seen comments from here that reduce BSN education to "A few fluff liberal arts classes" or "writing papers" yet my program does not reflect such dimissive descriptions of BSN education.

I truely wish it were a few fluff liberal arts classes or only a matter of writing papers. But it's not and I have to make the best of it.

When I was an LPN/LVN getting my RN, a multitude of tangible rewards were to be seen and I knew it, and it kept me going.

Better pay, better job opportunities, more independent scope of practice, all were to be seen for me as an RN than than crappy med/surg and LTC jobs as an LPN.

But where are the rewards for the ADN RN going back for the BSN?

More independent scope of practice?
No, as both ADN's and BSN's all practice under the same licensure level.

Better pay?
Hardly, the pay increase is insulting at best for the amount of time and hoop-jumping that goes on to complete a BSN program.

Better job opportunities?
Besides management or education (which frequently requires an MSN) where are the BSN job opportunities?

I'm only asking because I am running out of steam while swimming in public health, pathophys, and case management while I wonder why I'm even here doing this program with no desire to go to grad school or become a manager in any capacity.

I'm sorry, but you can't justify BSN minimum entry just to satisfy education snobs and the nursing elite.

I'm tired of hearing abstract reasons for BSN minimum entry like the old generic "technology is changing" or "other professions are doing or have done it" rhetoric.

I read a post from an LPN on this board a while back and I think it's so true:

If you graduated from a BSN program in 1976, your nursing education is now obsolete for the most part.

It is experience and hands on training that will give you the edge, not a BSN 20 or 30 years ago.

Give RN's a reason to go back and get a BSN besides threatening licensure pulls. You might actually get better results.

[waterbabies]

We can appreciate the nurses who have pursued higher credentials and the important contributions they are making to nursing in their areas of expertise, however BSN or higher is not necessary to provide competent nursing care. (I've heard a nurse educator (PhD) seriously propose that a 7 year masters degree be the minimum entry level requirement to take temperatures and pass bedpans. Not joking.)

The fact is, we need more nurses, from whatever RN education programs, who pass the NCLEX-RN, and we need them giving direct patient care.

Restricting access to RN education would simply eliminate many from considering nursing as a career. Not everyone pursuing a career as a RN is straight out of high school. Many of us went into nursing as a second career. I would not have considered nursing, if I had to go to college for a BSN, so healthcare would have been without my contributions for the past 25 years. Plain and simple.

I do continue my education, as necessary, to stay up to date in my area of practice. Annual mandatory CEU's, that update nurses in general, on critical, real and present changes in practice, would be good for the profession. A vague requirement for CEU's that can include off-the-wall theories, only allows charlatans to exploit the CEU requirement.

In all of the discussions about BSN minimum requirement that I have seen over the years, I have never seen anyone apply the nursing process to the problem.

What is the problem?

An excess of something?
A lack of something?
A danger of something?

As professional nurses, do we set unrealistic goals for out patients?
Why set unrealistic goals for our profession?

One of the big arguments for the BSN minimum requirement is the "critical thinking" skills that are gained the BSN program, yet I have not heard any of those masterful, critical thinkers come up with an argument for the BSN minimum requirement that is anything other than pure speculation. The only real benefit I see, is for those in ivory towers, who are vested in the provision of advanced degrees.

Like I wrote at the top. There are some nurses who can accomplish a lot by pursuing an advanced degree, but those of us in the trenches are doing fine without one, and a minimum requirement of BSN would be disastrous for healthcare.

Blessings,

waterbabies

[subee]

Originally Posted by SMARTY_RN

I am an RN with my Associates Degree, and I have been seriously thinking about going for my Bachelors RN. I can honestly say it has nothing to do with me being able to give my patients better care if I get my BSN, it would be to benefit me in the future for managing positions. No one who has posted on here has mentioned the most important people that would be affected here ( The Patients ) !!!!!!!! You know, the people who are the reason we nurses have jobs ! I think a bachelors degree would be awesome, but just not mandatory. Maybe if they offered more pay for it you would have more students going straight for the BSN instead of the ADRN. And I don't mean 50 cents to 1.00 dollar more either. Lets try maybe $10-15 dollars more an hour for having a BSN .....I would be 1st in line. .....But seriously.....priority is to the patients and they are more concerned about having someone who can safely take care of them ( passing boards is suppose to qualify a nurse for that ). For those who have BSN's or ADRN's congrats for all the hard work you have done to get where you are! Oh and one more thing......there was definately nothing fast-track about the ADRN program I graduated from, my program required a minimum grade of 78 for passing, and some BSN schools I know of has a 70-72 for passing.........God Bless


SMARTY_RN

Getting a position in management is far from the only thing you can do with a BSN. A lot of nurses with BSN and MSN are TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS.
Some bedside positions actually require BSN's in large urban areas. IMHO the large bulk of course work for BSN could be done on line with nurses coming on campus a couple of weeks per year. Remember there is no nursing shortage - just nurses who don't want to work in hospitals that don't give them the time for patient care.

[emrrn915]

I am just wondering about pay? If all nurses become BSNs I understand that we will all be considered "professionals" by some. I actually consider myself to be a professional now but that is my personal opinion.

I highly doubt that if all nurses become BSNs we will see a significant increase in pay/ a significant decrease in patient load. Since nurses make up the masses as far as workers in most healthcare settings how will the hospitals afford to bump up hundreds and hundreds of salaries? The last published article about our hospitals here indicated that out of 3 medical centers only one is in the black. I can only assume this is due to the fact of low reimbursement and lack of insurance amongst the general population. If we are all forced to obtain the BSN, nothing will change, in my opinion. The nurses will still make up the masses and they will be paid the same. The "elite" jobs which now only BSNs are qualified to hold will probably also pay less since every nurse will have the BSN and it will be no big deal.
If the issue is forced I would pursue the BSN. I had always anticipated doing so but throughout my career I have not had the need to do it. I have held quite a few non traditional nursing roles and really any extra education that I have pursued has been specific to my position so that I can do the best and have better knowledge of what I am currently doing.

I hate the argument and I don't see how it is going to change anything as I said. Do patients and the general public hold the BSN nurse in a higher regard?? We will still be seen as a nurse is a nurse is a nurse we will just all have a BSN
If we truly want to be seen as top notch professionals then they need to make the entry requirement Masters level. Master's education seems to invoke a lot of respect but for a variety of reasons that is completely unreasonable and unecessary..

[West_Coast_Ken]

Originally Posted by Halinja

Oh! And where would all these RN's be getting their educations? There were over 300 applicants for 70 or so slots at our school last year. If we suddenly require all ADN's to go back to school, AND require that all new nurses be BSN's, where on earth are they going to go to school?

This idea of requiring a BSN would fail--even if the ADNs were grandfathered in because there are not enough BSN seats out there just for the new students.

This plan would fail miserably unless hundreds of millions were spent USA wide to: 1) shut down ADN programs 2) build new facilities to train only BSN students 3) hire the MSN & PhD trained faculty required to teach in a BSN program.

This is nuts on many, many levels. I'm not going to concern myself with this any longer. Nothing to worry about in the least. IMHO

[AznMurse]

I don't understand the rationale to an "upgrade". ADN/staff nurses would need to know bare minimum to practice safely...and they have been doing that well. I don't see the need to go to a BSN program unless I am thinking of becoming a teacher, a manager or other nursing position that requires extensive academic style writing and research. Please, I had enough of that in my BA. In my opinion:
staff nurse = ADN
middle management = BSN
Management = MSN
unless some can argue and prove with statistical trends that a significant amount of ADN class are prone to practice unsafely, there is no rationale that would make sense for an "upgrade"