[Daytonite]

Originally Posted by RNPATL

First, I am almost finished with my BSN and will agree that there is no major incentive offered by my employer. That is sad, but true. Second, I am really going to disagree that BSN programs are fluff and they add a few courses on research here and management there. Simply not true. My BSN courses have been comprehensive and I have learned a great deal.

Well, I didn't want to step on toes, but as an AA nurse who went on to get a BSN I can say that there is a difference between the two. You may not get a major incentive from your employer for having the BSN, but I believe that doors of opportunity will open to you. They did for me. Within a few months of getting my BSN I was offered a position as a supervisor. With subsequent jobs I was moved into supervision or management positions if I wanted them quite quickly.

There is a difference is the training a person receives at a baccalaureate level of college. BSNs stay with me on this. How many term papers did you have to write for your upper division nursing classes? We had to write one for every class, footnoted and referenced! I never had to do one term paper in my AA program or any kind of research. Almost every BSN I've talked to has commented about all the writing that had to be done. And, it seems that process recordings are a big part of most BSN programs too. For my program, we had to do a couple of them for each clinical class. How many people have had to turn in comprehensive care plans that were 40 pages long and loaded with references to nursing texts. We were never given a model of nursing to follow for my AA program, but we sure were for my BSN program (had a whole course on it) and every care plan had to reflect that nursing model or your grade suffered. My professors in my BSN program constantly challenged us to self-analyze our actions and re-evaluate what we were doing with patients whether it was patient teaching or patient care. It was a very indepth and concentrated type of learning, not just memorizing facts and spitting them back out on a test. We were taught to really think problems through and to seek out solutions by using references.

[caroladybelle]

That was perhaps the experience of your AA program. My AS program however, required written case studies for all 5 terms, requiring multiple references, footnotes, and ran between 35-100 pages typewritten. In addition, copious reports were required in prereqs as well as additional term papers. We were also graded down for spelling/grammar/punctuation errors. (1/2 a letter grade for each and every error)

We were also given a model of nursing.

The big difference with the local BSN program, was the 9 hours of religion/philosophy class as opposed to our 3 hours of philosophy/ethics class, a humanities course, two general history classes, a extra math and an extra english course (both of which can be satisfied by taking classes lower ranked than the Nursing AS required english/math courses.

That and the tuition was four times more expensive per course hour at the BSN school

[Coolgramma]

Originally Posted by Snoopd

This is a relevent topic for nurses at all educational levels. I think the degree "requirements" being proposed by some legislators have more to do with image (and who is backing them? Hospitals of course) than the skill level of the trade. ADN programs and BSN programs are virtually identical in their core nursing education. The BSN programs vary a little, but most have an additional course in statistics, maybe a nutrition course, a harder chemistry, and maybe two additional "nursing theory" courses. A couple of extra "embelishments" but the "meat and potatos" of how to become a rookie nurse are identical. The MSN programs add more theory courses and a little bit of "management". What's the reward for that extra BSN? Maybe a buck more an hour, for the MSN maybe another buck an hour. That's how much hospitals think of the extra education. The proof is in the pay, and the hospital chains don't care enough to pay. Of course they can use your education to promote themselves - use it as a marketing tool, but in their eyes, and most MD's eyes, and the public's eye, a nurse is a nurse is a nurse - nobody cares (except the nurses who have worked so hard) what kind of "alphabet" you have behind your name - BSN, MSN, CCRN, blah, blah, blah. They want you to be educated, of course, so they can use that to their advantage, but are not willing to reward you in a significant way. The issue of education is becoming worse in my opinion. There are to many nursing programs, and with the advent of online degrees, the educational problem is becoming even worse . What is happening is that the "market" is being flooded with thousands of new, "more highly educated" (who have no work experience) nurses, and this will lead to lower pay and lower respect for new RN's regardless of degree. There are 125 medical schools in the US and they consistantly average about 16,500 graduates a year. When was the last time you heard of an MD shortage in the US? Never. They are selective, choose the best candidates, keep the quality high, and "turn out" a limited number of graduates a year. You don't see online MD programs springing up like weeds. Thus, they can command high salaries and professional respect and have the power to control their compensation. The AMA isn't crying about an MD shortage, why should they? All that would do is flood the market with new MDs and they would earn less. The "nursing shortage" is a ploy to attract new people to the profession and lower pay scales. Hospitals don't care about your level of education (except to use it as a marketing tool), they want a cheaper employee. If nurses want their future BSN or MSN to have any status, they need to have more political clout and get laws passed that are favorable to nurses - and not just staffing ratios- but greater autonomy in patient care and in what "skills" and procedures they are allowed to perform, as well as how future nurses will be educated and how many will be graduated each year. We need to focus more on the politics of our profession if we want it to be respected and financially rewarding. Having a "caring nirturing attitude" and being "a well rounded people person" are not enough, neither is having a bunch of abbreviations behind your name that only you and your colleagues value.

I am posting for the first time and HAD to respond to the messages about the value of "letters" after our RN designation. I have been around a LONG time (my grandchildren think I'm as old as dirt!). I have to begin by saying that I LOVE the choice I made when , at the age of 7, I decided that Nursing was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I have "lots of letters", and am in the procss of getting a few more.... Let me explain. I am originally from a Diploma program...GREAT education and super experience, however, not acceptable to colleges for the BSN degree, which, at least in NY was being promoted as the requirement for RN's as long ago as the early 1960's!!! I challenged as many courses as I could, got an ADN, then a BS in Health Education, and an M.Ed. in Curriculum Design and Development. Inbetween I became a Certificate prepared Nurse Practitioner in Adult and Adolescent Medicine, Nationally Certified through ANCC, (there were NO Master's programs for NP's yet), and Challenged the National Certification for Physician Assistants, so I am also a PA. I've worked in every area of Nursing except Psych (even though 15 years as Director of College Health Centers exposed my to LOTS of Psych issues). While living in Vermont, I taught in college classrooms, Nursing Schools in the BSN, MSN, and Post-Master's programs, as well as guest lecturer in Med School classes. Now I am back in NY and MUST return to school for a MSN (in ANYTHING) because NYS Dept. of Ed. says I'm not qualified to teach in a college level Nursing program without it...so that's what I am doing. No wonder we are not valued OR respected by other professions when our own professional organizations don't support us or fight for us in the legislative arena. MORE titles DO NOT a profession worthy of respect make!!! NURSES "EAT" THEIR YOUNG!!! Getting nurses to stick together is the hardest job of all. As a founding member of the NYS NP association, struggling to increase membership, I know that we don't belong to the organiztions that could change our status AND as a group let them know what we need and want, so a few make the choices for the many. Legislators see that we don't support our profession, and so why should they??? I am currently teaching nursing, pending my MSN, and my class consists of "mature" adults. Every class I tell them that you CAN make a difference!!! One person can! Look at Mother Teresa! And that this profession will be the hardest job they'll ever love. That will be my legacy to this profession, helping new nurses learn to value and love themselves and what they do. Bt the way, there's NO shame in wanting to make a good salary...valuing yourself and your skills is important. If you don't value who and what you are and can contribute, no one else will either.

Thank you for "listening" to 30+ years of struggle and frustration...I admire all of you who are out there fighting to make the difference and for valuing your professional choice...coolgramma

[mcorrao77]

Originally Posted by Daytonite

Well, I didn't want to step on toes, but as an AA nurse who went on to get a BSN I can say that there is a difference between the two. You may not get a major incentive from your employer for having the BSN, but I believe that doors of opportunity will open to you. They did for me. Within a few months of getting my BSN I was offered a position as a supervisor. With subsequent jobs I was moved into supervision or management positions if I wanted them quite quickly.

There is a difference is the training a person receives at a baccalaureate level of college. BSNs stay with me on this. How many term papers did you have to write for your upper division nursing classes? We had to write one for every class, footnoted and referenced! I never had to do one term paper in my AA program or any kind of research. Almost every BSN I've talked to has commented about all the writing that had to be done. And, it seems that process recordings are a big part of most BSN programs too. For my program, we had to do a couple of them for each clinical class. How many people have had to turn in comprehensive care plans that were 40 pages long and loaded with references to nursing texts. We were never given a model of nursing to follow for my AA program, but we sure were for my BSN program (had a whole course on it) and every care plan had to reflect that nursing model or your grade suffered. My professors in my BSN program constantly challenged us to self-analyze our actions and re-evaluate what we were doing with patients whether it was patient teaching or patient care. It was a very indepth and concentrated type of learning, not just memorizing facts and spitting them back out on a test. We were taught to really think problems through and to seek out solutions by using references.

I agree with you 100%!! My BSN program is exactly like this. When I first applied to nursing school, I was thinking "Great, no papers!!" (Since I hated writing papers in my first college degree experience. (My BSN is my 2nd bachelors degree) But it's all about critical thinking and what you as the nurse can do to increase your understanding of nursing practice. It's definately not about memorizing your notes and "spitting them back out on a test". I totally, 100% agree that my BSN program will make me a better nurse because of this. But for me my program is one year long! Of course, it was a very intensive program, but since I went to a SUNY school, it was so much cheaper than other schools I was looking at. It is an accelerated nursing program and if anyone who has a previous BS degree and wants to get into nursing, I recommend this.

[Tweety]

Originally Posted by Daytonite

Well, I didn't want to step on toes, but as an AA nurse who went on to get a BSN I can say that there is a difference between the two. You may not get a major incentive from your employer for having the BSN, but I believe that doors of opportunity will open to you. They did for me. Within a few months of getting my BSN I was offered a position as a supervisor. With subsequent jobs I was moved into supervision or management positions if I wanted them quite quickly.

There is a difference is the training a person receives at a baccalaureate level of college. BSNs stay with me on this. How many term papers did you have to write for your upper division nursing classes? We had to write one for every class, footnoted and referenced! I never had to do one term paper in my AA program or any kind of research. Almost every BSN I've talked to has commented about all the writing that had to be done. And, it seems that process recordings are a big part of most BSN programs too. For my program, we had to do a couple of them for each clinical class. How many people have had to turn in comprehensive care plans that were 40 pages long and loaded with references to nursing texts. We were never given a model of nursing to follow for my AA program, but we sure were for my BSN program (had a whole course on it) and every care plan had to reflect that nursing model or your grade suffered. My professors in my BSN program constantly challenged us to self-analyze our actions and re-evaluate what we were doing with patients whether it was patient teaching or patient care. It was a very indepth and concentrated type of learning, not just memorizing facts and spitting them back out on a test. We were taught to really think problems through and to seek out solutions by using references.

I think because the AA/ADN programs are geared towards NCLEX is the reason not many papers are written. I didn't write many papers in my ADN program either. I think too BSN programs that aren't RN to BSN program, do have a lot of those memorizing facts and spitting them out, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared for the NCLEX style of testing.

In the RN to BSN program I am in now, I've written more papers in the first course than I did the entire time in my ADN nursing courses.

So yes, there is a different focus in the two in some areas, but not all as Carolina has pointed out.

[mcorrao77]

Originally Posted by Tweety

I think because the AA/ADN programs are geared towards NCLEX is the reason not many papers are written. I didn't write many papers in my ADN program either. I think too BSN programs that aren't RN to BSN program, do have a lot of those memorizing facts and spitting them out, otherwise they wouldn't be prepared for the NCLEX style of testing.

In the RN to BSN program I am in now, I've written more papers in the first course than I did the entire time in my ADN nursing courses.

So yes, there is a different focus in the two in some areas, but not all as Carolina has pointed out.

My BSN program is not "a lot of those memorizing facts and spitting them out" schools. I will be prepared for the NCLEX by utilizing my critical thinking skills and my knowledge of nursing by applying it, not spitting back information! Anyone can spit back information.

[daisybaby]

Originally Posted by Daytonite

Come out to the Golden State. Wages and differentials are pretty good here.

I actually visited UCLA's MSN program last year, during my first ever trip to the West Coast and I LOVED everything California! I applied, was accepted...and then chickened out when I thought about how far away it would be from my family.

Now I'm back to the "what if....?" stage again. If you have any thoughts on where the good MS programs are, I'd appreciate your comments. I'm really thinking about taking the plunge, for real this time.

[DCB]

Hello, I am a diploma nurse with 33 years of many facets of Pediatric Nursing. I am currently a Pediatric Plastic Surgery Nurse Coordinator.

[DCB]

As an old diploma RN (30 +years), I am very saddened with the way we have been treated. As far as I am concerned, diploma programs were the best for teaching bedside care which included physical, social, psychological etc. And we wrote papers up the you know what!! 20-30 page care plans (2 per week) with a large requirement of references.
I have worked in Pediatrics most of my career from inpatient to ambulatory settings to Private offices. My doctors have loved my experience and care and did not ask about my degree. I listen to PNP around me with 5 years of experience and they do not have 1/2 the knowledge I have learned from experience.
I will soon complete a BA in Health Management. Mainly, because I am so close and want to accomplish it. The reason it is not a BSN is this:
If we are so short of nurses and they want us all to have a BSN, then why are diploma nurses not allowed into the programs without retaking most of our subjects? My instructors were from a 4 year college and a few had PHD's in Nursing, yet they look at my transcripts like they are Greek!!

This is one of the biggest problems in Nursing. Administrative Nurses and Colleges not acknowledging diploma nurses' training or experience.

Thanks

[tinyrita]

It will never happen.As it is the United States is headed for an unprecendented recession.Why pay an Rn when you can pay someone else less.

I know.I know.Its not ethical, but welcome to the United States of America.Money talks.The agenda of the world controllers is to equalize the united States with the rest of the third world.Hence importation of cheap labor and exportation of jobs.Add to this a 300-400 trillion deficit.

Youll be lucky to have a job in a few years.

Listen to any major economist.The ship is sinking.Only the very elite will have a good time of it.

Thats more than a grand a year types.Everyone else better make plans.HAHAHAhAh.