[Jess_Student Nurse]

Originally Posted by elkpark

I usually agree with you, llg, but I must say I've never heard of anything like this in all my years in nursing. I graduated (many years ago) from a hospital-based diploma program that did have a tradition of employing its graduates, but there was no pressure on us to stay at the hospital; we were continuously reminded by our instructors that this was the way our hospital did (X), but it certainly wasn't the only way and we would find, when we got out "in the world," that other hospitals did it different ways; and I would need to hear a reliable, first-hand account to believe that any SON pays (has ever paid) its instructors a "commission" on students who take jobs at a particular hospital. We had plenty of instructors who had come from different schools and hospitals, so we got exposure to a wide variety of attitudes and experience.

As for skimping on subjects like OB and peds (for that matter, any of the specialty areas), surely you're aware that most ADN and BSN programs these days offer only the bare minimum to meet the state requirement in those areas (at least, that's what I've seen in all the programs I've been involved with over the years)? So why single out diploma programs and imply they have some nefarious motive? This is a general trend in nursing education, not some sneaky trick the diploma schools dreamed up ...

Also, I would expect that procedures and equipment change so often in hospitals nowadays as a matter of course and the "onward march" of nursing & medical knowledge that it would be v. hard for students to avoid having to become comfortable with adapting to new "stuff." I'm currently orienting at a new medical center, and, in several topics of our orientation, we've been told, "Now, when you get out on the floors, you'll find all the nurses are complaining about (X), because we're just in the process of changing over to this new procedure (or equipment or form) -- it won't make any difference to you, because you're not used to the old way, but we know there's a lot of grumbling going on 'out there' ..." I recall from my student days (when there was significantly less change in general going on in nursing than there is now!) that there was ongoing change -- new ways of doing techniques/procedures, new equipment, new treatments & medications -- being introduced in the hospital all the time, and it was noticeably easier for us students to adapt (because it was all new to us, anyway ) than it was for the staff nurses who had been doing things the old way for years. (In fact, I remember us doing, as students, teaching presentations for the staff nurses on various units of the hospital on nursing dx, care plans, and how to do some of the newer procedures and use some of the new technology/equipment that was being introduced).

I'm sure that there may have been, somewhere, at some point in the distant past, a few schools with the practices you describe, but I have a hard time believing they were ever wide-spread and I have a very hard time believing any school would still be doing that today and getting away with it.

Also, I grew up Lutheran and attended a Lutheran college for a while many years ago, and am aware that the Lutheran system of schools and hospitals maintains very high professional and academic standards (we're really into over-achieving ... )

Thank you for a wonderful post. The school does offer a program that the hospital will pay for schooling and in return the student works one year for every $6000 borrowed. I didn't take this offer - even though I think it's great for those who need it.

I know I worked really hard at getting into this school - it wasn't easy by any means and I am really excited to have been 1 in 60 out of 300 applicants. I had to take prereq's, tests, write essays and more - so I was thrilled to get my acceptance letter in July. They have been around since the 60's and I've never heard anything bad about the school.

While in community college I know of many girls who talked about trying to get into Lutheran.

The reason I was worried is because in 2002 I spent $10 K on a tech school that was a scam - and I dont want to make that mistake again as I am still paying on that student loan and have nothing to show for it. As long as I am considered an RN like everyone else, I'm cool with everything.

[llg]

Oh ... I'm sure you will be an RN like everyone else. As I said in my original post, the quality of the education in most diploma schools is excellent. After all, they exist to provide nurses for the parent hospital -- and the parent hospital wants good nurses!

[Jess_Student Nurse]

Originally Posted by llg

Oh ... I'm sure you will be an RN like everyone else. As I said in my original post, the quality of the education in most diploma schools is excellent. After all, they exist to provide nurses for the parent hospital -- and the parent hospital wants good nurses!

Thank you. I feel a lot better now.

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by Jess_Student Nurse

Thank you for a wonderful post. The school does offer a program that the hospital will pay for schooling and in return the student works one year for every $6000 borrowed. I didn't take this offer - even though I think it's great for those who need it.

I know I worked really hard at getting into this school - it wasn't easy by any means and I am really excited to have been 1 in 60 out of 300 applicants. I had to take prereq's, tests, write essays and more - so I was thrilled to get my acceptance letter in July. They have been around since the 60's and I've never heard anything bad about the school.

While in community college I know of many girls who talked about trying to get into Lutheran.

The reason I was worried is because in 2002 I spent $10 K on a tech school that was a scam - and I dont want to make that mistake again as I am still paying on that student loan and have nothing to show for it. As long as I am considered an RN like everyone else, I'm cool with everything.

Graduates of all nursing programs, whether diploma programs, ADN programs, or BSN programs, take the same NCLEX exam and get the exact same state license (your license doesn't even indicate or reflect what school you attended). In that sense, at least "an RN is an RN is an RN ..."

I am a diploma grad who went on to complete a BSN (much later) and attend graduate school, and, in my own experience, most employers have considered it a plus that my original education was a diploma program.

Also, again, I would not hesitate to attend any school affiliated with the Lutheran church; they have very high standards and excellent reputations.

[elkpark]

Originally Posted by llg

And thanks for the courtesy in your post, elkpark. As you and I both know all too well, sometimes disagreements get ugly on this board. I appreciate that you didn't take it there. Maybe we can show some folks how to have a "friendly disagreement" here.

Well, I'm usually in agreement with you on most topics discussed here, and have a lot of respect for your opinions and views. As you may have noticed, though, I can always be counted on to jump in and stand up for diploma programs!

Wow, though -- that sounds like a really unpleasant program in your town!

[llg]

Originally Posted by elkpark

Wow, though -- that sounds like a really unpleasant program in your town!

It's really not a bad program. They produce good nurses. It's just that they do everything they can to guide their students towards a career at their hospital -- and discourage them from entering specialties that would take them to other hospitals in the community. The hospital has an excellent trauma service, OB, and cardiololgy services ... but doesn't do any pediatrics or psych, for example. As someone who works regularly with their faculty and administration, the fact that the school is supposed to do that is no secret. It's discussed quite openly.

In a previous job -- in another state -- the situation was similar. The local diploma program was excellent, but definitely guided its students away from specialties for which the city's primary facilities were located in other hospitals. The students did not do clinicals in those other hospitals and never got a chance to get a taste of what practice within those hospitals (and other specialties) is like. That hospital emphasized cardiology, OB, and general medicine ... but didn't do trauma, neuro, rehab, psych, or peds. If a student was interested in any of those fields, they wouldn't get much of it in school, only the bare minimum required. Again, it was openly discussed within the nursing community -- no big secret.

With no exposure to anything except what the school's parent hospital has to offer, most students choose to work in that hospital system. Both schools provided a good education, but both had a clear mission to influence the career paths of their students.

[Jess_Student Nurse]

Originally Posted by llg

It's really not a bad program. They produce good nurses. It's just that they do everything they can to guide their students towards a career at their hospital -- and discourage them from entering specialties that would take them to other hospitals in the community. The hospital has an excellent trauma service, OB, and cardiololgy services ... but doesn't do any pediatrics or psych, for example. As someone who works regularly with their faculty and administration, the fact that the school is supposed to do that is no secret. It's discussed quite openly.

In a previous job -- in another state -- the situation was similar. The local diploma program was excellent, but definitely guided its students away from specialties for which the city's primary facilities were located in other hospitals. The students did not do clinicals in those other hospitals and never got a chance to get a taste of what practice within those hospitals (and other specialties) is like. That hospital emphasized cardiology, OB, and general medicine ... but didn't do trauma, neuro, rehab, psych, or peds. If a student was interested in any of those fields, they wouldn't get much of it in school, only the bare minimum required. Again, it was openly discussed within the nursing community -- no big secret.

With no exposure to anything except what the school's parent hospital has to offer, most students choose to work in that hospital system. Both schools provided a good education, but both had a clear mission to influence the career paths of their students.

That's interesting info. I am glad that the parent hospital at my school has a great psych department - which is what I am wanting - so this is good, at least in my case. I'm really glad I asked though, it was starting to scare me and I was wondering if I had made a mistake.

[ebear]

Jess,
Generally, the diploma programs provide MUCH more clinical experience for the students; however, they may lack in academic general education. It may be a wise idea to see if there is a convenient RN to BSN program in your area and how long it would take you to complete the program (would any courses transfer,etc.) You said that you have completed three semesters of gen. ed., which is great. Just see how you can transfer that later down the road.
ebear

[punkingirl]

you will do a great job !!! i have been in this business 44 years......the "title" of the human being does not change. the name of the organ or bone or brain section will be the same probably forever...rules change, titles change,governing boards change, dress codes change, but not the human being who is the object of your skills, care and concern. Listen closely, your patient is your greatest teacher and they will leave a lot of fond memories in the future for you!!!! my mother gratuated in 1938 as a RN and made $30.00 every month !!! LOVED THE PROFESSION ...

[Martinette]

Originally Posted by ebear

Jess,
Generally, the diploma programs provide MUCH more clinical experience for the students; however, they may lack in academic general education. It may be a wise idea to see if there is a convenient RN to BSN program in your area and how long it would take you to complete the program (would any courses transfer,etc.) You said that you have completed three semesters of gen. ed., which is great. Just see how you can transfer that later down the road.
ebear

I did a three year program (diploma) in Pennsylvania in 1998 before moving abroad.

It was a hospital school of nursing that was affiliated with a local university. Our nursing theory and clinical was done via the school of nursing at the hospital and all other classes were done via the university.

We took A&P 1 and 2, chemistry, nutrition, psychology and sociology, microbiology, english, statistics and much more at the local university at the same time we were doing the diploma at the school of nursing, it was a mandatory part of the program. It was all affiliated together and a very good program. Kicked out of school if you scored lower than a 80% on any course.

Afterwards it was easy to get my BSN at the university my diploma school was affiliated with. The diploma program itself was pretty academic and a tougher few years than the bsn program afterward was.