[mstigerlily]

Totally agree! I have an ADN and a BA in another field and am working toward my BSN starting this fall, I feel it is the standard nurses should strive for. I understand not everyone has the time or money to devote to a BSN program originally but I think it's important to continue.

As far as passing boards, our school's pass rate is consistently 95% or higher every year, no exceptions. I am disturbed by people who flunk boards more than once. That tells me something is wrong either with the students themselves or the education/preparation they received. I felt VERY ready to take boards and breezed through them in about 60 minutes - honestly I felt our 4th semester final was far more difficult than NCLEX!

And our school gave you one chance to flunk/drop out of a semester for ANY reason whether it be illness, low grades whatever, after the second time you could not come back. Period. Yes, it was harsh but it kept people who were serious and really working hard.

Melissa

Originally Posted by elkpark

Not a criticism at all, but just a point of history -- actually, up until fairly recently (the last 15 or so years -- to me, that's recent ) the MSW was considered the entry level into social work, and all social workers had MSWs. No one expected to get a job in social work with just a BSW; it was understood that the only thing a BSW prepared you for was to get into a graduate program in social work. The same was true in psychology; when you said, "psychologist," everyone understood that you meant someone with a PhD (because no one else bothered to call themselves a psychologist) ... The change was part of the overall push in healthcare to get the job done (or, at least, pretend to get the job done) as cheaply as possible -- organizations started hiring people with lesser qualifications/education because they could pay them less -- which, IMHO, as resulted in a general "watering down" of standards in many areas of healthcare. I hope that trend may be starting to reverse itself.

I also agree that, for all the talk in nursing about us wanting to be taken seriously as professionals, v. few people want to talk about the "900 pound elephant in the living room" (as we say in the substance abuse tx biz ...) -- there is no other "profession" (or any occupation with aspirations of being taken seriously as a profession) for which a community college degree is the entry level ... I'm not saying I support making the BSN the entry level across the board, but the reality is that it is just delusional of the nursing profession to expect that we would be taken seriously as peers by real professions under the present circumstances.

I'm not a big fan of current BSN education in nursing; I've been involved in recent years in several different ADN and BSN programs, either as a full-time faculty member or an adjunct/guest instructor, and, from what I've seen, I seriously worry for the future of nursing ... My diploma school did a much better job back in the Dark Ages (actually, it was the early '80s) of preparing me to function competently as a entry-level Registered Nurse, including critical thinking skills, ethics, legal issues, and "professionalism," than any of the programs I've had experience with since then. (Of course, I realize there were plenty of poor quality diploma programs around in the old days, and I was mostly lucky to have found myself in a really good school.)

And what's up with so many people flunking boards nowadays?? My state BON newsletter recently reported that several good, solid, respectable nursing programs (at least, I thought they were ) in my state are on probation with the board because they have NCLEX pass rates of 70%, 67%, 56%??? Clearly, somethin' ain't right ... It wasn't that long ago that schools (not to mention the BON) considered it a crisis if their pass rate dropped below the high 90s (%) -- at my school, if the rate had ever dropped below 99% or 98% (once in a while, one of the graduates wouldn't pass), the faculty would have all committed ritual seppuku out on the front lawn to atone for their (obvious) failings ... Now, taking the boards multiple times is apparently considered some sort of "rite of passage," and the whole thing seems to work like some weird lottery (as a poster on another thead noted recently) -- eventually, you get lucky ... (Please note that I blame the schools for this phenomenon much more than the students -- I'm not crticizing students for this).

I apologize for sounding like one of those bitter old battleaxes (I always wince when I do, because, when I was a student, I always swore that I would never be one of those nurses who says, "Back when I was a student ...") I certainly don't claim to have all (or any!) of the answers. But it does seem to me that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater in several different aspects of nursing, and I believe nursing education is one of those areas. I don't blame any particular individual(s) or group for this, but it seems like there's something seriously wrong with the system -- but we're all too busy being warm and caring and supportive of everyone to really take a objective look at what's going on with nursing and its future. I hope I'm not too far off-topic, and I apologize if I am.

[Loisanderson]

Yes this is true. The law was changed last year though.
I now live in Indiana but went to nursing school in ND.
I can see why the BSN entry level did not work out. First off, there were very few BSN programs in state prior to the law taking effect in the early 1980's. Secondly, many nurses had to travel quite a distance in order to get BSN. From what I understood about law was that you could practice in state with your RN license provided you had graduated prior to law taking effect. Any nurse coming from out of state with ASN or Diploma had 5 years to take BSN courses.
The LPN program was lenghtened to 2 years. The same went for out of state nurses wanting to practice with LPN.

[traumaRUs]

This is an issue that won't be settled in our lifetime. I know when my husband was looking at an assignment in ND back in the 90's, I told him I didn't want to go there because of the BSN only requirement. I think we need to unite together and appreciate our differences.

[RN34TX]

Originally Posted by caroladybelle

If there was justice in the "Degree theory", teachers would be well paid and treated well by the Public (they are not), Social workers would not be overworked and underpaid and we would require nursery school personnel to have a Masters and pay them accordingly. Families would have difficulty affording day care, and parents/people would value childcare more as a good and responsible task (as it should be).

As long as nurses don't sit at a desk, doing clean and tidy work, on a nine to five with a one hour break, the career field will be at a disadvantage at attracting others due to "prestige". And making it harder for the working class to enter this very "working class" field is not going to help.

Few want to get a Bachelor's to clean up poop.

Great post!
Every time I read a thread on this subject someone always uses teachers as an example of how nurses all having BSN's would make us more respected and "professional."
Teaching, now there's a highly valued and respected profession, along with the pay to reflect it's pretigious status.
I had two friends when I lived in Dallas that were both Dallas high school teachers and both were disgusted, but not really surprised, that I made $10,000 a year more than they did and I was an LVN then!
And this was straight pay as a staff, not agency or any overtime involved.
They felt insulted that someone with my mere "technical" education, I mean training, (as they believed that anyone not educated in a 4 year university merely receives training, not education) was getting paid more than they were.

Then there's always the comparison to nurses with the other health care professionals that require bachelor's or master's degrees for entry.
I find it hard to understand how any nurses honestly believe that Physical/Occupational therapists or Social Workers, by virtue of their educational requirements, are more respected in any hospital than we are.
How many nurses have you all run across lately that are leaving nursing and going back to school to become social workers, occupational therapists, or teachers for that matter?

Many nurses are going back to school so obviously educational access is not the issue, most are not leaving the profession for other more "respectable" fields.
LVN's are becoming RN's and BSN's are becoming NP's and CRNA's for obvious reasons: better pay, more career options, etc.
but I still have yet to meet a nurse who is going back to school to become as respected as a teacher or social worker.

[ZASHAGALKA]

BSN entry will not be the standard anytime soon. All the BSNs complaining that we need a standard entry into nursing: we have one - ADN/ASN program.

Your BSN exceeds the 'standard' - congratulations.

Not being seen as 'professionals' has more to do w/ care plans and diagnoses that are a 'foreign language' to our peers. We hide what we communicate because we dare not cross lines - we strive to stay in 'our place'. Then we complain that other healthcare professionals - who can only make sense of the graphics (read the part done by our non-licensed counterparts) part of our documentation - don't take us seriously. Why should they, when we are too busy making sure we stay safely 'in our place'.

You can complain all you want that degree status keeps us from being professionals. Until there is a paradigm shift that allows nurses to step out of the shadows and actually say what we mean and take credit for what we actually do, you could have a doctorate and still be 'just a nurse' in the eyes of the people you are so desparately trying to impress.

Until nursing throws off the 'theories' that have pigeon-hold us as glorfied servants, no amount of education will be sufficient.

And putting down ADNs to support your point of view will not only not change that, it's sheer hubris. In a world where 'profession' is a wish list, you are no more a 'professional' nurse than I. And no less.

~faith,
Timothy.

[NurCrystal22]

I agree with Timothy here. I currently have a practical license. Tuesday I start school for my ASN, and after that I'll work on my BSN and Masters. But, I don't think I'll "feel" any different. I know I'll have more responsibilities as far as things I will be able to do. However, it will not make me feel MORE professional to say that "I have a Masters degree" verses "I have a practical license". I will still be a nurse.

It seems that people are getting upset because the feel they are being "put down" because they don't have a BSN. Well, in my state it doesn't matter. Nurses with an ASN or BSN are paid the same amount and have the same responsibilities. Why? Because with either degree, they are still an R.N. Still a nurse.

ANYWAYS, enough with the seriousness, for me at least. Don't get mad you all, you know if you're professional and you know if you are a good nurse no matter WHAT type of education you have. And believe me I've seen it during school and out in "the real world".... there are some nurses with "top notch" education that don't know anything and vice verse. Don't let your feelings get hurt.

~Crystal

[Thunderwolf]

Totally agree, Tim, in alot of ways. And the debate goes on...and on...and on...until BSNs outnumber ADNs, then the standard may possibly change.

ADN BSN

But, I too don't see this happening soon either. The nursing school waiting lists for both are a mile long. "Professional" practice in many fields begins at the Masters level. Nursing is the exception to that rule. No wonder others (education, counseling, psych, social work) are envious that an ADN may make more than a Masters in another field. But, Nursing as a field of STUDY/Science wants to be SEEN as MORE professional by the nature of higher degrees/licenses like these other professions. Nursing as a field envies the degrees. The other fields envy our income. No, the debate will not go away...not any time soon.


------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by ZASHAGALKA

BSN entry will not be the standard anytime soon. All the BSNs complaining that we need a standard entry into nursing: we have one - ADN/ASN program.

Your BSN exceeds the 'standard' - congratulations.

Not being seen as 'professionals' has more to do w/ care plans and diagnoses that are a 'foreign language' to our peers. We hide what we communicate because we dare not cross lines - we strive to stay in 'our place'. Then we complain that other healthcare professionals - who can only make sense of the graphics (read the part done by our non-licensed counterparts) part of our documentation - don't take us seriously. Why should they, when we are too busy making sure we stay safely 'in our place'.

You can complain all you want that degree status keeps us from being professionals. Until there is a paradigm shift that allows nurses to step out of the shadows and actually say what we mean and take credit for what we actually do, you could have a doctorate and still be 'just a nurse' in the eyes of the people you are so desparately trying to impress.

Until nursing throws off the 'theories' that have pigeon-hold us as glorfied servants, no amount of education will be sufficient.

And putting down ADNs to support your point of view will not only not change that, it's sheer hubris. In a world where 'profession' is a wish list, you are no more a 'professional' nurse than I. And no less.

~faith,
Timothy.

[Otessa]

"It is a lot more difficult to be accepted into the ADN program than it is the BSN. Also, the BSN colleges are not as demanding as the others. For example, if I was not to pass two classes whether it be the first semester then the forth, the ADN program will kick me out. Then I would not be able to reapply for 3 years. "


I don't know what state that you live in but I believe it is difficult to get into ANY nursing progrm right now.

The program I attended( I graduated in 1992) was a research-based program that had a LOT of clinicals-I was quite prepared to care for patients when I graduated. My BSN degree has afforded me better pay and increased opportunities. They would simply have looked over my resume and not looked any further with an ADN. This is my experience.

[lindarn]

Originally Posted by grannynurse FNP student

Without intending to do so, you have just angered approximately 60% of the nurses, in this country. I began my nursing education at a diploma school. I ended up receiving an associate degree and went on to obtain my BSN. The arugment, concerning the three entry levels of nursing has been on going since before my time. And it will continue because nursing is so fragmented, in its education process. I wonder how many nurses would accept a two year graduate to educate their children or grandchildren? Not many, I venture. Why then, are they so insistent at maintaining a three entry level in nursing. Fear? Lack of funding? Lack of time?

I am not here to debate the value of an associate vs a BSN education. However, I agree with you, we have stagnaneted in resolving this issue. And nothing will change because we generally do not value education, in the way that other professions do. Instead of moving forward, we insist on going along our merry way and continue to complain of how unprofessionally we are treated by other health care professionals.

Grannynurse

AMEN. I have said the same thing in all of my posts. The public equates worth with education. Nurses just don't get it. I also started out as a Diploma grad in 1975. It did not take long for me to figure out who was at the bottom of the food chain- the nurses. In Washington State, and many others across the country, PTs and Pharmacists have gone to a Doctorate as entry into practice and OTs have gone to a Masters.They all manage to find a way to attend college for 5-8 years, complete a one year internship, to give them the chance to learn the practical skills of their profession. No one is expected to hit the ground running the day after they graduated. And surprisingly, there are no sob stories, and no whining and complaining about it from the potential students. There are record numbers of applicants to these programs. Here is Spokane, WA, Physical Therapists earn $80,000 a year, (working in a hospital, not running a free standing PT business), twice what an RN makes. In last Sundays paper, there was an ad for a hospital in Yakima, WA, offering sign on bonuses of $20,000 for Physical Therapists.

Increase the education, decrease the number of individuals graduating from school, and by the doctrine if supply and demand, there members are highly prized, and rewarded. Compare this to nursing where new grads appear every six months from "ABC Community College", and the market is flooded with another group of suckers. There is no reason or incentive to retain the older, (read, "expensive"), experienced nurses and we are shown the door in many ways.

I agree with granny nurse. How many of us woud accept a HS diploma, and a six month certificate as adequate to teach in the public schools? Also, teachers are rewarded with a higher salary with every college degree that they earn. Regardless, if they are doing the same job as another teacher. The biggest proponents of the "well, if you are doing the same job, you shouldn't be paid more than someone else, who has a lesser degree", are the hospital administrators.They play on nurses insecurities, and play one against the other-"those BSNs think that they are BETTER THAN YOU ARE, and they want MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEGREE, AND YOU DON'T". Meanwhile, the newest, brightest, BSN grads, soon leave the profession due to no respect or reward for their education. And with the job getting more stressful by the day, the BSNs say, "I don't need this, I can do better". And they leave. And the hospital administrators are laughing all the way to the bank. They didn't get where they are with an Associates Degree in business, did they? They know the value of an education. It worked for them, didn't it? Why shouldn't it work for you? Because, if they paid the BSNs more, the same thing would happen. We would start to ask for more money, and that is the last thing that they want. We are always apologizing for our lack of education, and thinking of ways that allow people to accept that we are professionals worthy of the respect and pay of other health care profesionals. Think about it.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, Washington

[AtlantaRN]

Here are the class requirements to go from associates level, to BSN...

<<btw: i've worked at 4 facilities south of atlanta, and they didn't pay any higher for bsn>> Medical college of georgia requires 35 credit hours to obtain a BSN, where georgia state requires 56 credit hours for the RN to MSN...that sounds like a better deal to me.

edited to delete long post ...and to add link:

medical college of georgia link:

www.mcg.edu/son/rnbsn/index.htm